Leah Guy, author, inspirational speaker and podcaster, invited us to join her show, The Modern Sage Podcast.
We discussed the power of giving and receiving. The importance of community and connection. We shared our story about StartNoo and why we decided to start a social enterprise to tackle student loan debt.
THIS EPISODE COVERS:
- The importance of service to your community;
- What inspired Daphné Vanessa and Shamil Rodriguez to create Startnoo.com;
- Paying it forward and experiencing a deeper sense of meaning in our every day lives; and
- much, much, more…
Enjoying the show? Leave us a rating and review. Every comment helps! Drop in your IG handle so we can thank you personally!
Shamil Rodriguez (00:00): Welcome to another episode of the student loan podcast. Today's episode has a bit of a twist because instead of interviewing someone, we are the ones being interviewed. But before we get into today's topic, we're giving away one ticket to a university administrator to attend south by Southwest EDU in Austin, Texas from March 7th through March 10th. All you have to do is visit universities dot, start new.com and register to create a university account for a chance to win your free ticket to so by Southwest EDU, once again, if you're a university administrator, all you have to do for a chance to win is register to create a university account by visiting universities dot start new.com. Now back to our being interviewed by Leah guy, Leah guy invited us to join her show, the modern Sage podcast. We discussed the power of giving and receiving the importance of community and connection. And we also shared our story about start new and why we decided to start a social enter prize to tackle student loan debt. And without further ado, we hope you enjoy today's episode.
Daphné Vanessa (01:09): Volunteering has really transformed my life in a way that's allowed for me to get deeper with my spirituality. Like I said, by sharing energy with other people in other populations.
Leah Guy (01:27): Welcome back to the modern Sage podcast. I'm Leah Guy host, and I'm so happy that you're here. We have a very, um, exciting and informative and hopefully inspirational podcast for you today. We're talking about giving the importance of giving and the importance of receive the gifts. And we have some special guests with us, which I'll introduce in just a moment, but before we get there, I just wanted to, um, read an excerpt from my spiritual journal for what giving back with grace means giving without demand, the act of giving can open one's heart and create a greater sense of connection to your community and to the old, at large personal contributions to the lives of others, brings joy and fulfillment to your life, enhances your spiritual journey and makes life a little easier for someone else. As you make an intentional and consistent choice to give you expand your consciousness and create meaningful relationships with others, whom you may not have other eyes met.
Leah Guy (02:24): Extending acts of service can come in many forms. Some people have more time or energy than money while others choose financial donations. There are plenty of ways to practice gracious, giving all with great impact as you consider what you have to offer and the ways in which you'd like to give, remember that any contributions, ports, the collective growth of all now today in the podcast, we're talking about how giving can expand your spirituality and all the, the variety of ways that a person can give. I know some of us feel like we're oftentimes drained or we're broke, or we don't feel like we have anything more to give. And I put a quote on, um, Instagram, not too long ago about that when you're exhausted, it's not because your energy is drained from doing too much. It's because your energy is drained from doing too much of the wrong thing.
Leah Guy (03:14): And I find for myself when I get super focused just on my life and my work and trying to crank it out and get everything done and meet all the obligations, there can be a sense of fatigue, but when I'm engaged with other people, or even if I'm just in the mindset of, you know, how can I offer support to my friend or to this person or this organization, how can I go spend, you know, 30 K conscious dollars to a small business that might need my help and support today, it can make all the difference for another person's life, but kind of, you know, selfishly it makes all the difference for us as well. So this is really a reciprocal act of, um, energy exchange that really affects our mental health that affects our emotional health. And it expands our sense of connectivity to the oneness of all people around the globe.
Leah Guy (04:06): And, you know, as, as this says in the book here, um, and as our guests will share with us, there is, there is no better way to make contact connections and relationships with people from different culture, from different societies, from different, uh, countries than when you're engaged in that connection of giving. Also equally important is the ability to receive. We all have times in our lives when we need help, when we need support, when we need a listening ear, when maybe we need money, whatever the need is, there's no shame in opening ourselves to receive what others want to give to us. That also is part of the spiritual practice. If we're just focused on output and we're not focused on input, we're actually creating a divide where we can't, we don't let others connect with us the way that we are talking about giving to other people.
Leah Guy (05:01): So it kind of puts a stop in front of other people's opportunity for them to expand their heart and their consciousness and their spirit with you. So the act of giving is also the act of receiving now today, um, to help us talk more about this topic. I have two special guests. They're co-founders of a beauty company called start new, and, um, I called it a nonprofit and I've been corrected to know that now it is a social enterprise and we're gonna learn what that is. And we're joined by Daphne Vanessa, and Shael Rodriguez. The co-founders of start new and I'm so happy. You guys are here.
Daphné Vanessa (05:38): Thank you so much for having us, Leah, we're super grateful to be here and to share with your audience. Absolutely.
Leah Guy (05:45): Thanks. Thanks so much. So I've, you know, done the little intro here, and I know you guys have dedicated a, a large part of your life to this company called, called start new. Why don't you tell us what start new is? And then I wanna dive into how the impact of giving and being of service and also receiving has, uh, changed your life.
Daphné Vanessa (06:06): Absolutely. So start new is a social enterprise. Like you said, we help people make an impact in the community and in exchange, they get payments directly towards their student loans and tuition. So it's a concept called incentivized volunteering, and we're on a mission to spread volunteering as far as possible to people who may not have otherwise had the opportunity to volunteer, right? It's a, it's a privilege and a benefit to share energy with people at all levels. And we wanna spread to as many people as possible. So that's the concept of start who is really giving back to amazing nonprofits who are really making a difference in the world. And we're super excited and blessed to do that. Shail
Shamil Rodriguez (06:48): Absolutely. And I think that the great part about what you were saying when you introed us, uh, Leah, and just went into your excerpt from your book, is that there's that connection to community right there, there's a lot of time where we spend just really focusing on the individual self and not really wondering how are we impacting the world and with start new, we are really trying to help those that are in school and that graduate to make sure they don't forget about it can become very easy to forget about the community and just focus on your career. So there really is that balance that we're trying to strive with what we're doing.
Leah Guy (07:20): Yeah. So I know for me, you know, I, obviously I talk a lot about self care because that's what I do, you know, and, and I help individuals with their own, with their own life and their growth and their healing and so forth. But that sense of getting outside of ourselves is one of the biggest, uh, um, hurdles sometimes. And it's also one of the greatest healing agents that we have in our own journey. So Daphne, why don't you tell me a little about your sense of volunteerism before we get more into what starting to actually does, what, what volunteerism has done for you?
Daphné Vanessa (07:57): Oh my goodness. So thank thank you for, or for offering me the opportunity to share volunteering has really transformed my life in a way that's allowed for me to get deeper with my spirituality. Like I said, by sharing energy with other people and other populations. And this comes from my family personally, that has a, a heavy experience in volunteering when I was very young. Um, I think around 13 years old, my father, my grandfather, and I flew in to a country. And there were a lot of people sort of asking for money crying, begging, and I saw all of that and it overwhelmed me and it made me cry. And I was like, why are these people suffering? I, I didn't, I didn't wanna see it. And my grandfather said, stop cry, trying, do something about it. And quite literally, he did things about it.
Daphné Vanessa (08:45): And that's why he was saying it. He wasn't saying it to be mean, he was saying it because he had dedicated his entire life towards helping people and today, um, or not today because he's since passed. But at his funeral, there was a line out the door. There were so many people walking up to us saying, thank you so much for what your grandfather did because he not only gave away money, but he actually made sure that the people that he was paying for school had food to eat, um, had, did their homework. He followed up with people to make sure the, they did their homework. Um, he actually was vested in their success and their wellbeing, their personal wellbeing, which was something that, that no amount of money can replace, right. Is, is just knowing that somebody cares about you. So he was instilling from very young age, the fact that we're not only on this earth for ourselves, but to serve our communities. Those around to strangers are not strangers. Strangers are neighbors, and that's sort of the mentality. So combined that with my grandfather on my mother's side and my father who today has given up his entire career to serve people in Haiti. Um, I have just a foundation on both sides, which are people that are dedicated to service of others, and that hopefully being passed down to me.
Leah Guy (09:57): That's awesome. Well, I love the history and the inspiration because I think a lot of people, you know, we get overwhelmed when we look at either the TV ads or we travel and we see the homeless people and we just sometimes go, you know, I don't know what to do and whatever I do, it's not going to help. But I think the, the most important thing that you mentioned is, well, of course your story is important, but the aspect of what you were talking about is the sense of caring about people, you know, and no, we cannot, you know, I cannot single handedly go out into the world and change, uh, the, the economy and the food structure system. I can't clean everybody's water. I can't hand out money to everyone, but that sense of other people, knowing that someone cares is sometimes enough to help them connect into their own spirit and their own sense of self worth that may even spark their idea, motivation or something, their heart, it opens their heart. And, um, that is the most important part I think about volunteer or one of the most important parts about volunteering. So thank you for sharing that. Shael um, what is your, what is your, um, passion in the work that you're doing?
Shamil Rodriguez (11:16): I think a big of, of that passion that I have is really the human connection. Uh, it's something that really speaks to me. Uh, I think that oftentimes when I think about the stories that I read or the, you know, emails that we receive, uh, it really is about breaking down the barriers that I see a lot of people have. And so what I appreciate about the opportunity is that it doesn't matter where you're from. It doesn't matter what your experience is, you know, what country, what parents, whatever, what you really see as people just trying to help people. And I think that's what really keeps me going. Uh, and that idea that there's something out there that's called community and connection, that, that really kind of puts aside all the other stuff that keeps us divided in so many ways.
Leah Guy (12:02): Yeah. So, you know, it seems in times of disaster or, you know, other kind of global issues, we seem to do a fairly good job of, you know, showing for our community and other people, but on just the regular average day when we're busy and when we're, you know, focused on all of our own stuff, we get very judgemental about who we're giving to and why we're giving and Daphne, and I talked a little bit about this before, in the sense of, you know, I, I know there's a struggle with people, especially giving money to organizations that, um, they don't believe that a lot of the money's actually going to the aid, but instead of going to the workers and we see, we see some of that with these big, um, nonprofits and so forth, and then to giving to people on the street that are struggling and homeless, you know, people don't wanna give to a person who's gonna go buy drugs or drink or spend the money that way.
Leah Guy (12:59): And it's really important that we remember as, as giving, you know, as the givers that we're giving from our open heart to be supportive in that exchange without trying to control or judge what goes on, hopefully, you know, giving to a company in particular that has integrity. And I, I, I love y'all's company because I believe it does have that integrity. But, you know, I said to definitely the last time I was like, well, if I was on the streets and somebody gave me a dollar, I can't say that I wouldn't go get, you know, alcohol or some other substance to alleviate my suffering because those people are in pain. You know, it's not there, they're, they're there because of choice. They're there out of exactly very dire suffering and dire straits. And, um, we have to really work through that within ourselves in that, you know, where we want to hold and judge and condemn others as less than us, or not as good as us because of the choice that they have made or might make. Right. So how do you all, how do you all, um, justify money that comes into to your company and pay your bills and pay yourselves and technology and all the stuff that's required and give forward? What's your, what's your thoughts on them?
Daphné Vanessa (14:14): Yeah, so we actually are a social enterprise, which means that we put social first. We put the good of what we're doing first before profits. So currently we still have not profited. That is not the goal of a social enterprise to profit first it's to make impact first. And we're definitely on the precipice of making the type of impact we'd like to make. And then one day the profits will come. But the truth is that we are more concerned about volunteers coming out and serving people and people connecting with the homeless. You gave the example about people judging. And that hit me very hard because I have UN domiciled friends from my time serving the, the homeless, what are commonly called. Um, but they prefer the term UN domiciled. And what I learned is that not everybody is there because they want to be, as you said, a lot of people are there because they've given up life to serve somebody else.
Daphné Vanessa (15:11): For example, I know a friend who chose to become homeless so that his daughter could go to school. Wow. I mean, what level of service is that he is living on the streets so that his daughter can get an education. And I just think that we sit here judging people, but instead if we would, we would connect with them, right. That service, that sharing of energy, we all of a sudden would not only deepen our spirituality through that sharing of energy, but we'd understand and empathize with them for where they are instead of judging. Yeah. And we are on a mission to spread as much of that as possible. I think if we can get to a place where we're more empathetic towards each other, as humans' serving each other, where we see each other as brothers and sisters, and not just strangers, we're in a different place, we're a community again. And I think we can get back to that. And we're definitely on a mission to get to that place. That's our pride. Yeah.
Leah Guy (16:05): That's beautiful. Yeah. And, you know, there's so many reasons that people are in need and, and again, in our kind of American eyes, Western world, you know, there, it's, it's very common for people to judge and believe that this isn't, um, necessary, but a lot of people don't have support and they don't have a support system, you know, and, and even if they did have a support system, at some point, they may have not come from financial means or, um, mental or emotional health. And, and then they may have endured a lot of trauma in their life and other emotional suffering that has led to people. And, you know, I've interviewed several of these people and I know, you know, a lot of people as well, their, their stories are really fascinating. And, um, you know, there's actually a, a great documentary on Netflix right now.
Leah Guy (16:55): I know, I know there's been a lot of documentaries, but their stories are fascinating. And when we get to the heart of the, who the people actually are, you know, we humanize them instead of just separating ourselves in our protective shell so that we don't feel like there's a possibility that that could be us, but we have to remember if we truly are one, you know, if there is a oneness, if there is a connectivity, we are connected to everyone, not just the pretty shiny people. We are connected to the people that, you know, that have are suffering. We are connected to the disabled. We are connected to the poor. We are connected to all the people they are in us. We are in them. And it's how we share that collective energy that, you know, offers support. So Shail why don't you tell us about start news. So for those who are just listening and not watching, it's start N O o.com and behind your logo, there's a graduation cap. There looks like an WL. So, and I know the Daphne told us about the tuition and the learning, but tell us more about what start new actually is and who it's for
Shamil Rodriguez (18:04): Sure. Absolutely. So we actually have four different of stakeholders that really participate in the program. Uh, so you've got your students that are in school that are trying to pay. You have those who have graduated with student loan debt that are trying to figure out how to pay off their student loans. Uh, then you have the nonprofits that are actually use that are getting the skills that the services from the users that are on the platform and then the universities, right. That tie it all together. So of those four demos, uh, as I like to put it are really making it happen. It's our ecosystem, right? It's the, what makes it all work? Uh, and so that's, that's how it, it functions the nonprofits benefit from receiving the skilled service, the universities benefit because now their students are more likely to stay in school, right.
Shamil Rodriguez (18:47): If they have a way to pay for school, uh, and then if you've graduated, you don't wanna feel like you've been left in the dust, right? Like you got a raw deal and said, Hey, you know what I finished, but now I've got all this student loan debt, and now I have to defer life decisions or, you know, think of a new strategy on how I wanna approach my life, because I didn't expect that I'd be paying over a thousand dollars a month in just student loan payments, um, with a, you know, uh, entry job level up salary. So those things are, those are the, the people that we are impacting and we're bringing together through start now.
Leah Guy (19:18): Okay. So just so I understand, and our listeners understand if I'm a student or even a graduate, right. I don't know if this would apply to someone like myself, even if I had student loans, it would student
Shamil Rodriguez (19:29): Loans. It would, yeah, it
Leah Guy (19:30): Would. Okay. So let's take me, I don't have student loans, but let's just assume, and I'm grateful that I don't
Shamil Rodriguez (19:34): Regrets.
Leah Guy (19:36): It's a huge topic right now, you know, are they going to erase the student loan debt and so forth, but let's just say, so I have student loans and then I can sign up through, start new and find a nonprofit organization that needs some kind of helper service. So then I would go to the nonprofit and provide, um, however many hours or the terms of the service are. And then, then they, what happens next?
Shamil Rodriguez (20:05): Okay. No, you, you were so close. No, very good. I was like, wow, she's doing great. So no, Leah, you got it right on the head. So then at that point, uh, the nonprofit would confirm that you actually provided the service and then you can request that that payment go directly to your student loan provider or servicer or the school, if you are a student in school. Uh, so that's, so where
Leah Guy (20:26): Does the money come from though?
Shamil Rodriguez (20:28): Yeah, so great question. So it comes from donors. Uh, it comes from other partners that are, are working with us. So that's where we have the social enterprise part. And I know a lot of times people will think that we're a nonprofit because we are so heavy on donations to make it work.
Leah Guy (20:42): Okay. So in other words, the nonprofit is getting a service essentially for free. They're getting the service of in that scenario myself, so they don't have to pay. And then you guys pay me according to the time that I worked from donations or support that you have in your social enterprise,
Shamil Rodriguez (21:00): Very close. So the way, the way that, uh, yeah, you, uh, very close. So the, the nonprofits don't pay for your service directly, right? What they do is they pay a subscription to be on the platform. So if I walk you through I'll, let's say, we'll, let's go through you as an example, Leah. So you found start new and then you're like, oh, you know what? This is great. I still have some student loan debt. Um, maybe this can help fill in some gaps. I got a few hours a week where I can give back to the community. Um, but it would be nice if I can get something in return for that. So what you do is you find certain, you sign up, you create your profile and you add your information. Once you've done that, you gotta make sure that your school is on our campus.
Shamil Rodriguez (21:34): Even if you graduated, you gotta make sure that the school is on our platform. Um, once it's there. So we'll say it is right, your school's on our platform. You would put in your zip code or category that you wanted to serve for like say you loved animals and you wanted to help animals. You go do that. Um, you would find an opportunity and say you were a marketing major, uh, and you wanted to help them redesign their website or do something along those lines, help them with their copy on their sites, whatever, once you did that, uh, then you would, uh, you would get a, uh, confirmation that you did the service and then get the payment. Now from the nonprofits perspective, they find us because they may not have access or the funding to pay for someone to redesign their website or for attorneys or engineers, to help them with whatever projects they have. So they pay a monthly fee to be on the, the platform. And that's the only fee that they actually pay. Uh, and then the donors, another part that we didn't speak about us. No. So, yeah,
Leah Guy (22:29): That's interesting. Uh, I was just saying, I see.
Shamil Rodriguez (22:31): And then, and then for the donors, an aspect of it, that's different. And I think you had hit hit this before, uh, is that not knowing where your money is going? Uh, the benefit about what we do at start new is that you get your own donor profile and you can actually see where your money goes and who it's impacted. So now you're saying, oh, this nonprofit has benefited from what I gave. And these students or graduates have also benefited as well. And you can actually interact with people if that's what you want to do. So now you see what your legacy is doing versus just kind of writing a check in and hoping it goes for good.
Leah Guy (23:02): So how much can a, can a student or a graduate earn from this platform? I mean, a lot of people have, you know, a hundred thousand dollars of debt or more a
Shamil Rodriguez (23:11): Absolutely there'd be working
Leah Guy (23:13): For tail off, right?
Shamil Rodriguez (23:15): Yeah. Yeah. So they can get a it's 25 do $25 an hour, uh, is the rate that we have on start new. And the way we look at it is that we see ourselves as a supplement to someone's strategy, right? We're just one extra tool in your toolkit to help you pay it down, uh, pay down your loan will help you pay, cover the gap that you might have between your financial aid package and what it might cost for you to go to school.
Leah Guy (23:40): Okay. So Daphne, um, it, it sounds to me like instead of someone like maybe a person that isn't able quite yet to get a job or be employable, or maybe they don't have enough experience just yet that they could come to your organization and then they get not only paid, but they get experience for their resume and start making new relationships with people, right. At a pretty good, an hourly rate.
Daphné Vanessa (24:06): Exactly. That's exactly the, and that was the demographic that we started off. We were a part of the financial crisis and we thought, okay, these people are or unemployed. And we want to make sure that there is an opportunity for those individuals to not lose out on experience, lose out on a career. Because when the economy came back, nobody was interested in somebody who was four years out of graduation with no relevant work experience who had been working retail. And let's say you wanted to work in a marketing firm. They wanted somebody who had the experience or was fresh out of school and to train. Yeah. So that this, this served as a gap initially for those people. And it just kind of spread from there.
Leah Guy (24:54): Okay. So anyone who's listening, if you have a nonprofit organization and needs some assistance, or if you have school debt and needs some assistance, this is for you and for other people that either can't control, attribute financially to an organization like this, I just wanna remind us all that there are so many ways that we can give back your time is priceless. And we know that, and it, and because of that, it is so cherished by people who need it. Um, I often tell the story when I owned a healing center, that was a for-profit business, you know, and it paid my bills in my home. And obviously the rent at the store, I, I often would allow and ask people, you know, in the community that were regulars, they wanted to be of help some ways. And I would let them help me. Um, it felt great to them.
Leah Guy (25:42): It felt great for me. And it was a mutual exchange that, you know, everyone benefited at and, and learned. And we also came closer together as a community. And it was beautiful also, um, some ideas that, you know, that I've done is I've helped teach music to kids or tutored kids after school. Um, I've taught yoga and meditation, the boys and girls clubs, or, uh, various organizations like that. You can adopt a child from one of those organizations. You can adopt an elderly or senior person. You can, I've played music at, uh, nursing homes. And so there's so much, oh,
Daphné Vanessa (26:16): So
Shamil Rodriguez (26:17): That's great. There's, there's
Leah Guy (26:19): So much to do. Or if you have extra food and you don't really love leftovers, I guarantee you there's someone nearby that would of your food, you know, package it up, drop it off, and you don't have to say a word about it, just drop it off near the area where, you know, people hang out or maybe sleep at night. And there's all these really beautiful anonymous. And, and, um, you don't have to be anonymous, but ways that you can give that don't cost you anything else. But if you do have the blessing of additional resources, then there's places like the social enterprise start new and others that you can contribute to and feel good about what you're doing. Um, helping a person. You know, what I love about yours organization so much is that, you know, there is, there is the eagerness on, on all sides.
Leah Guy (27:14): You know, there's the eagerness of the person who has the, the, the loan or needs the financial support, um, from the student and there's and eagerness from the nonprofits. And everyone's showing up for this exchange instead of that energy of like, I have to go to work, or I have to do a job, you know, there's, it just creates a different energy of, I get to, you know, and kind of choosing, you know, seeing who needs help, you know, what nonprofits that are serving the, the world needs some help. Now is yours organization international or is it just in United States?
Daphné Vanessa (27:50): It's a great question. So we're focused on the United States for now, and that's not because we haven't received interest. We received global interest for sure. However, we're really focused on solving this 1.7 trillion. I checked crisis, and it is a large number, you know, in the United States. One of the most developed nations student loan debt is the second largest consumer debt. Second only to mortgages. And that is just a sad case because if education is a public good, and if education is something that will uplift our communities and help a us improve as a society, then why is it costing people their lives? Why is it setting people back? So we really wanna focus on the United States where percentage wise, this is a greater problem than in other nations. And then we'll move and expand globally based on interest. Once we have a solid foundation in the United States,
Leah Guy (28:44): Okay. Now here's an important question. That's specific to your organization. What if they dissolve all the student debt? Do you guys go under what happens then?
Daphné Vanessa (28:52): That's our dream. Our dream is
Leah Guy (28:54): Not
Daphné Vanessa (28:55): To exist. We, we could be doing a million things. The truth is that, um, you know, we, we have professions in our own, right? This is something that we're personally very passionate about, but my goal in anything that, that we create, and I think anybody who creates technology, the goal is to automate yourself out of a job you want to no longer be needed because you've solved the problem. So if the problem is solved elsewhere, that's great. It's great for us. We care about the nonprofits getting help. If we get to a place where volunteerism is on, on the increase, donors are personally connecting with the people that they give to, and then students and graduates no longer have student loan debt, right. They graduate and they can start their lives. They can focus on what really matters to them instead of taking a job just for the money.
Daphné Vanessa (29:40): I think it would be, wouldn't it be beautiful if you could graduate without thinking about student loan debt and say, I'd actually like to spend some time deepening my spirituality because that wasn't taught in school and I'd like to take a trip to Bali, or I'd like to take a trip to Thailand or, or wherever to, to deepen yourself because that's so important. We don't spend time doing that in school. And so why isn't there time to, to focus on yourself? Maybe if there was no student loan debt, that would be an opportunity for people. And so we would be so grateful to see a world where that's the case. If they forgive student loan debt and we no longer have to exist, I will be the first person to throw everything outta the win.
Shamil Rodriguez (30:19): You,
Leah Guy (30:19): You can equally,
Shamil Rodriguez (30:21): You
Leah Guy (30:21): Could quickly go to, um, credit card debt after the student loan debt.
Daphné Vanessa (30:25): Right.
Shamil Rodriguez (30:26): That's true. It's true. Yeah.
Leah Guy (30:28): All right. You guys, thank you so much. And for those who are interested in their organization in particular, the info will be in the show notes and please check them out. And otherwise, I just hope that you consider, um, this very spiritual act expansion and heart centered connection with yourself and with other people and with the world at large, by considering ways in which you give. And if you need any other suggestions write in, and or if you have, uh, some interesting ones that we haven't heard from before, please leave it in our reviews or send me an firstname.lastname@example.org. I love to hear from you guys all the time, and we're always looking for, um, you know, ways to contribute and give back. So thank you both for being here best of luck to your social enterprise and to everything that you do in your life. And we will see you next week on the modern Sage podcast.
Shamil Rodriguez (31:21): For more information on today's episode, visit the student loan podcast.com/episode 64. That's the student loan podcast.com/episode 64.
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