The Student Loan Podcast Intro (00:00): Welcome to the student loan podcast.

Shamil Rodriguez (00:03): Here, you'll find practical advice on tackling student loan debt, paying down your higher education expenses and

Daphné Vanessa (00:10): Inspiring stories about paying off student loans, where your host, Daphne, Vanessa

Shamil Rodriguez (00:16): And Shamil Rodriguez.

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Shamil Rodriguez (00:29): This is not professional advice. And we speak from our own personal views and opinions.

Daphné Vanessa (00:35): The student loan podcast is brought to you by start new, where you can serve your community and get rewarded with tuition and student loan payments to check out if start new is on your campus, visit start new.com. Welcome everyone to another episode of the student loan podcast. Today, we're going to be discussing something that is causing a bit of chatter these days, student it loan forgiveness. Shael what have you heard about student loan forgiveness?

Shamil Rodriguez (01:07): It's one of those topics that seems to go up and down, up and down, up and down in terms of popularity. And it seems like we're going through another round of some public figures asking the president and the department of education to bring the topic of student loan forgiveness. So I'm actually excited for this start news, I guess, theory or version of our update that will, you know, talk about some of the latest and greatest student loan forgiveness topics that are coming up.

Daphné Vanessa (01:33): Awesome. So with that, let's get started on Thursday, December 3rd, around that may be the wrong date, but it was on Thursday, Congressman Jamal Bowman, urged, student loan forgiveness, and here's what he had to say.

Rep. Jamaal Bowman (01:52): Student debt is a national crisis. It was a crisis before the COVID 19 pandemic and it is an even bigger one. Now I can't think of a better opportunity to cancel student loan debt today over 40 million borrowers owe a combined 1.8 trillion in loans and the share of people who are able to make payments high enough to reduce their principle balance has been rapidly declined. That means for years, people have been doing all they can to make monthly payments, but can only afford to keep up with the interest that accrues. So if someone took out a $30,000 loan to go to a public state university, but can only afford the minimum monthly payments to cover interest, they can be paying hundreds of dollars every month for years, without seeing the total total amount they owe go down at all. In fact, many borrowers see their debt increase because they

Daphné Vanessa (02:59): Can't even keep up with the interest. Wow.

Shamil Rodriguez (03:08): That was a powerful impact. At least a statement that was being made because I think the part that stood out to me Daphne is the last part where through unit loan borrowers are seeing their rates increase. And that is a reality for some people. And I, I think that sometimes that gets overshadowed and I think there's a lot to unpack there. So where, where do you want to begin? Cuz we can talk about the idea that people need to have a better understanding of what their payments will look like when they sign for this student loans. Cause when, when I was in school, you just signed and that was it, right? You got your packet and you, you know, put your folder away with your paperwork and you kept the moving. But you know, my understanding that people are trying now today to make better efforts, to make sure that students understand exactly how much that's going to look like, like is your 30,000 loan gonna be an $800 payment, a $400 payment? How long does that actually, like what is that percentage of your income when you graduate? If you have an average salary based on your field of study or the job that you want to pursue? Because unfortunately I think people can have grandiose or over the top expect for what they will earn when they graduate versus breaking down the numbers and realizing, oh, you know what entry level in my field is a lot less than I thought in terms of take home, pay every month.

Daphné Vanessa (04:31): True statements. I also was, I, I took that statement to heart when he noted the interest payments, but at the same time, what I think the different opposing views have to say is that people should be aware of the contracts that they sign. That's just a part of adulthood. So it's a very hard place to be in because the impact is undeniable. I don't think anybody can deny I that the United States as a developed nation has a large amount of student loan debt for something as basic as education where I think the discussion is still happening today is that whether the government's forgiveness of student loan debt is the best solution. So a lot to unpack, I don't think that the mentioning of interest increasing the amount of the loan is false that's of course mathematically correct. The challenge like you said, is that people don't know that that's going to happen and they haven't taken the assessment.

Daphné Vanessa (05:41): And so question is, is that the role of the government to give people that awareness? Is it the role of the universities? Is it the role of the student themselves? Is it there a combined sort of responsibility for somebody to be self aware? These are all countries that the United States has decide as a country. Every country approaches the answers to those differently. So very heavy, a lot to unpack, but very powerful statement. So along the same lines, a O C, which is Alexandria Ocasio, Cortez also was at the same session where she made comments on student loan forgiveness. And so we're gonna play those before we get to the other view representative Congresswoman Ocasio,

Fox Business: Dagen McDowell (06:34): Cortez, thank you so much representative and we're here, Bronx boogie down caucus, checking in your caucus, checking in student loan, cancellation caucus, checking in because this is getting ridiculous. This is ridiculous. I am 32 years old. I was told I'm generation college graduate on my mom's side. And growing up, I was told since I was a child, your destiny is to go to college. That's what's gonna lift our family up and out. That is our future. That's what we're here to accomplish. So 17 years old when college recruiters started coming to my high school saying this is worth it. And we still do that today because it's teenagers signing up for what is often hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. And we just do that. And our government allows that we give 17 year olds the ability to sign on and sign up for a hundred thousand dollars worth of debt. And we think that's responsible policy 30 I'm 32 years old. Now I have over $17,000 in student loan debt. And I didn't go to graduate school because I knew that getting another degree would drown me in debt that I would never be able to Surpas.

Fox Business: Dagen McDowell (08:16): This is unacceptable. Not only that 65% of all jobs in this country require an education beyond high school. First generation college students are two times as likely to report being behind on student loan payments and 63% of borrowers who made payments with Navient. The forbearance still owe more now than they originally borrowed. There are hundreds of thousands of people in this country who owe more on their student loans now than they did when they first took them out. We as a country are profiting off of insurmountable and crushing educational debt and it is wrong. It is absolutely wrong. Four years after graduation, 48% of black students owe an average of 12.5% more than they originally borrowed. But this isn't just an issue of a CR of a debt crisis. This is an educational crisis in the United States of America. If we wanna remain competitive, if we wanna remain innovative and if we need the technological investments necessary to address things like climate change, we need an educated country.

Fox Business: Dagen McDowell (09:43): The United States is dis has a policy of actively disincentivizing higher education. We disincentivize people from, from getting a or secondary education beyond high school that is backwards and the least we can do in a Mor we have a moral obligation, an economic obligation, a political obligation to cancel student loan debt in the United States of America. We've seen the benefits that this has had, that this had during the forbearance alone. It has given people the breathing room to do what they need to do. And so that we can stop writing these ridiculous articles that young people are killing diamond rings, and they're not buying houses and they're killing this industry or that, that we're not having children it's because we're being crushed by imoral debt. No person should have to go into debt, crushing debt in order to get an education it's wrong, it's backwards. And it doesn't help us as a country.

Fox Business: Dagen McDowell (10:51): So I'm greatly looking forward to that. I'm greatly looking forward to the Biden administration can canceling student loan debt and no longer advancing the false narratives that student loan debt is for the privileged. What a ridiculous assertion do we really think that a billionaire's child is taking student loans, come on, come on. If you are taking on student loan debt, it's because you are likely a working or middle class person. So let's get real, let's cancel it. It's in the interest of the people it's in the interest of this country, it's in the interest of our future. And with that, I yield back to the distinguished representative from the Bronx and Westchester Jamal Bowman.

Shamil Rodriguez (11:38): It was a lot to unpack. I think that that Congresswoman Ocasio Cortez did, she went in a lot of different directions there. So I'm actually gonna just try to address a couple at a time. Cause I know I wanna make sure that we get the opposite view on this topic on here as well. So we can give, give it some play as well. But I, I think she hit up on different aspects of the same issue, which is what we had mentioned before is whose responsibility is it to, to actually inform and educate, you know, when, when she makes statement that it's an insurmountable amount of debt that she can't overcome. I, I think when you have $17,000 left, that seems like a tough statement to make. But I can understand somebody who had, you know, , you know, a lot more with their grad student loans, you know, a lot of the attorneys that we know and, and doctors that we know than any, any other professionals that go for, you know, two or 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, more years of schooling, they've got mortgage student loans is what I call them.

Shamil Rodriguez (12:42): And so I think when they say that, I feel a little bit more compelled to believe that they feel overwhelmed with that. But that doesn't mean that somebody who is making a lot less that has 30, 40, $50,000 doesn't have that same stress. Right. I have to be a, you know, acknowledge that that stress is going to come from whoever and depending on their specific situation, the, that that's one, the other, the other part that sticks out to me in, in what she said was the idea of like, whether it's good policy or not, that were allowing for 17 year olds to take out that amount of debt. I thought that was really compelling because it's something that's frustrated me that, that I just wasn't let's say thoughtful, right? As a teenager making a decision because right, the way I was brought up was very similar where it was like, you're going to college.

Shamil Rodriguez (13:31): So it wasn't even a thought that I was not going to college. It was like, all my years, I was conditioned. You're going to school, you're going to school, it'll set us free. You're going to school totally different financial world. If you go to school, go to school, go to school. But it was never a conversation of go to school, get scholarships, apply to this, go to here, take advantage of this program, get it from free, you know, like that, you know, there wasn't how to pay for it. It was just get there. So when I got there and I took out the student loans, I was like, well, that's just the part of the game, because I'm just gonna be financially set because I'm going to school. And I think that not having, it was basically being naive and just being ignorant to the idea that you should actually do the math, what the average campaign worker, based on what I did, right.

Shamil Rodriguez (14:15): Gonna make, what is, you know, your average, 30, 40, 50, 60 grand a year gonna look like depending on where you live and work in the country, gonna look like on a monthly basis. And then how much is of your percentage of your income gonna go towards just student loan debt? And if you're making the minimums, that's just the interest. So I, I, to that, it's like, yeah, if you, if you lay it out that way and say, Hey look, 45, 50% of your, of your income after tax income will go towards just your student loan debt and you're gonna have X, Y, and Z left to live. How do you feel about that? Do you still wanna take out the student alone? No. Or right. you know, I just think that there needs to be that type of conversation where somebody can really spell it out so that they're making a decision based on the future version of themself and not where they're at now, looking at this, you know, this goal, they were always conditioned to believe that that's how they had to make it happen. What do you think D

Daphné Vanessa (15:16): There's a lot of opportunity for roles again, I think, and I just wanna shout out AOC that I think even if you don't agree with everything that she says, she's a vibe, man. I love her style. Like I think she's funny. I love how she said, come on, man. In the house, like she like doesn't care. She doesn't give a fly. So I think I love that about her. I love that she's bringing the millennial vibes to Congress. I think more of that is needed because it's a little stuffy in there. And I think Congress, corporate America, they could all use a little bit of, you know, millennial, gen Z vibes, just saying so I love that maybe even the military, I don't know Shila, you tell me, but I think that a lot of these institutions don't represent the majority of workers, which are millennials and, and well millennials right now.

Daphné Vanessa (16:11): And gen Z is coming up next. So it's really nice for me. I know this is slightly off topic, but to see generational diversity, I think that's a big thing that is not spoken about often enough, but it's the foundation of where we are today, right? We're talking about student loans. You think a bunch of old wealthy people care about student loans. No, man, they pay a long time ago. They probably didn't have to pay it off. Like my dad who is in the silent generation often says, he's like, I became a doctor and me, I studied, I work, I pay for my school. Like he paid being a doctor while studying. You can't do that today. You know, because the amounts are so different, but that generation had a different experience. And so it's not top of mind. So I love that gen like our generation millennials and also gen X, you guys are helping out.

Daphné Vanessa (17:03): Thank you. Are really speaking about this and bring it to the forefront, but it takes generational diversity to see that. So that's just 0.1. Yeah. Point two is on what you were saying is who is that message coming from? And I agree that it's really unfortunate that people don't know what they're signing up for. I think that's, that's really terrible, but I don't know if that responsibility lies with the government. I, I, I don't know that I can personally agree with that. And I think more conversation needs to happen for me to sort of feel comfortable with that. But I do think a good starting place is maybe speaking to universities and educating parents, honestly, of people going to school because while I didn't receive training in university on scholarships, my, my parents gave me a lot of that. And so I wonder how we can get parents of different schools to become informed about the process while also informing students.

Daphné Vanessa (18:06): Is it a university session? Is it new students admittance day when you guys have start to come on campus to talk about this? I don't know, but there's a lot of opportunity. And actually since we're on the topic, if any university administrator is listening to this, we are offering a free session for new students acceptance day in the summer. Whenever you guys have that for your students to teach them about this, because there is an opportunity to learn about it. Maybe universities don't have the right capacity to do this, but we are happy to help you guys with that. If that's something that you're interested in.

Shamil Rodriguez (18:45): Yeah. And I think, I think the argument about whose role it is and whether it's the governments or not. I think what I appreciated about her statement that we just played was that it was less about whether it's the government, just in that specific statement, I'm sure she has others, but it was more so about having access to people that don't have the maturity or the financial know-how to make those types of decisions. And it, it immediately, for me, for some reason, brought back to mind where there are certain limitations that, that people can have access to based on, you know, population. So if you were, you know, a life insurance salesperson, you couldn't go into a hospital and like ask for records of people that had new babies and say, Hey, we want to sell our products to these people. Right? Like, so what I, what that, the reason I brought that up is to say, you know, maybe we should not allow for those recruiters to come to high schools, to ask people, to sell that dream, to sell that vision of this $120,000, total loan debt that you're gonna take out so that you can do what party.

Shamil Rodriguez (19:49): Right. Cause that's the other argument that we hear on the other side soon, or at least arguments that I've heard in the conversations

Daphné Vanessa (19:54): That I have. Right. It's already in the comments

Shamil Rodriguez (19:56): It's already in the comments. Right? So , but that's my point is that I think it doesn't necessarily have to be that the government, the government, the government is the one in charge of your decision making. I think that the government should at least consider, Hey, how are we profiting from this? That which know they are right? How are we allowing for people that are advocating to take out student loan debt? How are they having access to teenagers, which I think would be smart to talk about limiting access, or if you are going to have access, then having these counseling sessions, having these, these coaches sit with people independently and having to make decisions based on what the reality is gonna look like based on the average income for someone graduating in their field and what percentage of their net income that would actually look like.

Shamil Rodriguez (20:42): I think if you start to say, oh, I'm only gonna have $500 left a month based on all that debt. No, I'd rather have more, you know, like there's just cuz she hit on that. I, and, and I think that might be a good segue into the last part that I wanna talk about from that clip. She hit on the point, that was very important, which is people are deferring life decisions, right? It's not our responsibility. I found that interesting the whole time industry thing. I didn't know about that. That's news to me, but news

Daphné Vanessa (21:06): To man, I'm very rare. Cause , it's affecting the prices of some jewelry that I've been looking at, but, but go on, go

Shamil Rodriguez (21:14): On. Oh man. Oh man. Bad for me. no, but the, the the idea of deferring your life decisions because of your student loan debt, I think that's absolutely true. Like I deferred going to law school because of that, but I figured out a way to do it, right? Like a, a part of, of, of the benefit of going to the military in New Jersey in particular and some other states they pay for your schooling. If you go to a state school. Now that that was the benefit that I learned about, you know, towards the end of me coming in. So that was great. And I ended up going, but not everybody's going to do that. Right. Not everyone gonna pursue that type of path. But I think that the idea that I waited, you know, two to three years to make that decision because of my student loan debt, it was purely because of man, I'm already paying, you know, this amount of money per month towards my student loans. I really can't just take on another one and just add it to it. Like I have to think of a plan before I, I go there, but that was because I had learned through the bumps and bruises of having my undergraduate student loans be so high for what I was making, coming outta college. What do you think Daphné?

Daphné Vanessa (22:18): Yeah, I think a lot of that has been discussed. I don't wanna minimize those very real experiences. I agree, like in the spaces that I read, you know, we often talk about women delaying having children, which is time sensitive biologically. So it's affecting women in the sense that less women are having children. And so that, that was even in the most recent sense, like there are less kids out there now, but how can you for that, if you have six figure student loan debt. So I completely understand delaying life decisions, but I did want to add just for context is that these are both videos that are available, that you'll see in the show notes. The reason why I mention the government is that both of the people speaking, who just spoke the Congressman and AOC, they had huge signs saying, cancel student loan debt, next to them as they give these speeches. So for context, because most of you are listening and not watching the videos, you'll see that they are calling for the government to cancel student loan debt in this session, which is why I mentioned the government, not only being the source of a solution. So with that, I would love to move over to another view and just giving you guys some context and foundation with John butcher on Fox business. So this is from earlier this year, but just generally the opposing view on student loan forgiveness programs,

Jonathan Butcher on Fox Business (24:03): Okay, how much forgiveness can someone get? Well, the state will pay up to $40,000 of student loan debt through its housing development authority. You know, there are a lot of people who say this program is a good idea, especially in a state like Illinois, where people are leaving in droves because it'll keep people here, keep them paying property taxes and state income taxes. But there are those who say, you know what? Free money is never a good idea. This is just a small program right now, up to 25 million of the state's budget allocated for it. But it could get out of hand, listen to give money away. It sure might make people want to come to your state. I'm not sure that's the best way to get people to stay. The state should really be paying attention to, to budgetary issues, right? It needs to get its fiscal house in order. Yeah. So the argument there is that this is just not a sustainable way to get rid of student loan debt over a long period of time. But student loan debt Stu a big problem, $1.7 trillion of it across the country, of course, state like Illinois, like that gentleman mentioned has to get it budget in check first.

Daphné Vanessa (25:08): So that is just some background on one state as an example that used student loan forgiveness to drive people to the state. But I actually have Dave Ramsey, the legendary to talk about student loan forgiveness as a program. Generally we'll just listen to these back to back and then speak as a whole sound good? Yep.

Fox Business: Dagen McDowell (25:31): Sounds good. College is expensive, super expensive. And many families have felt the pinch of rising tuition cost. One new study from us news and world report shows in-state tuition and fees that public universities skyrocketed 211, 7% over the last 20 years. This as the department of education announces, it's canceling more than 11, half billion in student loans. Joining me now as personal finance expert, bestselling author, Dave Ramsey, Dave, I get it. Oh, the federal government's gonna cancel my debt. So I can just me and my family, we can just take on oodles a debts. So I go to college and it'll get washed away, right?

Dave Ramsey on Fox Business (26:11): Yeah. Right. So the 11 and a half billion was normal course of business. If you become disabled you have always gotten your student loans canceled and that's a cancellation program that's always been there and has always worked. The other thing is if you got defrauded by a school that went out of business, you get that student loan. So that's always been there and it's always worked. The cancellation that they're all bragging about. That doesn't work is the public service student loan forgiveness and 98% of the people that apply for that so far have not gotten forgiveness. Wow. Only 2%. That's known as a scam. It is

Fox Business: Dagen McDowell (26:47): Victoria. Jump in.

Fox Business: Victoria Fernandez (26:50): Yeah. You know, look, I am right in the middle of this conversation because I have a child that just graduated from university of Texas. I have a freshman at NYU. So if there is a place I can go sign up for loan forgiveness, tell me, and I will be the first in line. I just don't see this happening. But I think what's important too, is that we need to look at what the future of a four year traditional college looks like after the last year and a half and the changes that we've seen and the way people work. I'm not so sure that that traditional college experiences, what people are at actually going to do going forward. I've never seen so many online college commercials as I have in the last six months or so. So I don't know if that's gonna shift the way people approach college, but the cost is tremendous and people need to start saving early. And I'm sure Dave has some suggestions on how they can do that. Well,

Fox Business: Dagen McDowell (27:42): And Dave, I always, and I'm not, when I say this, I've said this on air before, and I'm not joking. If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't go to a four year school. I would probably be a plumber today. It's if you're your own, you know what, it's a great trade. You're your own boss. There is always work and you can kinda work when you want to, but that that's part of your advice.

Dave Ramsey on Fox Business (28:06): Well, my friend Mike agrees, we both know that the trades have been overlooked because America put its nose in the air and snubbed anyone who didn't get a four year degree for the last five generations. And it became a thing that if you didn't go to college, you weren't gonna be successful. And then under the heading of that, we kind of went crazy and said anything. You study at any price at any college and you'll become successful. So you can get a degree for 225,000 lefthanded puppetry, and you'll automatically be a broke barista.

Fox Business: Dagen McDowell (28:39): And I've, I have met people like that who are at the government that they have the I'm like, well, did you, you paid a quarter of a, a million dollars for a degree that doesn't give you any marketable skill and you're mad at not yourself.

Dave Ramsey on Fox Business (28:57): Well, the, the problem is you, we got, we got 18 year olds making adult decisions. You don't sign an 18 year old up for a $300,000 mortgage. You don't sign a 17 year old up for the that without some guidance. And mom and dad are standing back and going, oh, they're adults let 'em do whatever the high school counselor's going. Well, pay for college, whatever. However, you gotta do it, go do it. And, and then we say, well, go to a famous school instead of an affordable school. And so let's double down on how stupid we're gonna be here. Let

Fox Business: Dagen McDowell (29:22): People mock me online because I got a degree in art history. But my college wake forest at the time was $7,500 a year. And I was lucky my family, my grandparents, and my parents paid for it. But my father also put his boot on my butt. When I graduated and said, you're not getting it coming in the house. Here's $20. Don't call me if you get married, you're on your own. I am a nobody. I can't get you a job anywhere. So that's where I was. I got a degree, a cheap one, but I had to go out there and hustle. Dave, you have a new documentary out it's called Bo future. Can you tell us about it?

Dave Ramsey on Fox Business (29:57): It is. It's gonna start up a holy ruckus egg. There's gonna be some people really upset with this when they watch it, because we're gonna expose what the government has done here. We're gonna expose what higher education has done here. And it has been a culture wide con and it's outta control. And the victims are 18 year olds in this. And it's, it's sad. I talk to them every day. They're delaying having kids. They're delaying getting married. They're delaying buying houses because they're swamped and covered up and overwhelmed with this debt that they signed up and did what everybody told 'em to do, get an education at any cost. And it doesn't even matter what you study or where you go to school. And so borrowed future will scare you straight. You got a 17 year old, you got a 13 year old you anywhere in your life you need to watch this documentary. It will rock your world

Fox Business: Dagen McDowell (30:49): Do that. You should go to a four year school cost doesn't matter is the biggest lie sold to kids across this country for generations?

Dave Ramsey on Fox Business (30:57): It is. It is. And I, I, I would say go get a four year degree if you're gonna study business or marketing or communications or something, right. Education is important, but overpay for education. It's an irony of ironies that in America were stupid about education

Daphné Vanessa (31:14): oh my God. That was

Shamil Rodriguez (31:21): Legit though. I mean, I, I appreciate go. Good DPH. You go first. This

Daphné Vanessa (31:24): One. I mean, I love the honesty, first of all, mm-hmm yep. I, I have to say that it's refreshing to not hear talking points, but to hear a real conversation. And then also I think what was interesting was just the fact that there were some similarities between the two views on a, on certain things. For example, people being very young, making major life decisions without guidance. I think that was a theme that both Dave Ramsey said, and I believe AOC mentioned as well. So you can see that in the United States on both sides, they agree that that people that are at very young shouldn't be signing up for six figure student loan debt without some guidance. And I think the guidance piece is really where we need to look into things, as well as the education piece, which was mentioned by the Fox new analyst for, for this clip as well, which is the fact that do people know what they're signing up for financially? Are they being educated? And they were making light of it, of course. But the truth is that I think that's really the area for opportunity. And then with the sec, the other point that they made, which is the cost, like the cost 200%, what, since 2002, by the way, that's not that long ago, 2002, I was like not, I was old enough, 2002. I remember, you know, so like the fact that 2002 to now up 200%, the cost that is crazy.

Shamil Rodriguez (33:07): No, I think, I think you, you're hitting a spot on it's let's sort of, I wanna go into that argument about the idea of the cost, right? Versus it's this treating the symptom, if you're into medicine versus treating the source of the cold, right? So that argument is totally valid when we say, you know, just if you just forgive student loans, but you don't actually take care of the issue that's causing student loans, which is the expensive amount that it takes, or the amount that it caused to go to college. Like they had mentioned in the Fox clip, you'll see that that's the case. You're, you're addressing only one aspect of it. And I think that the idea of somehow addressing the cost of college will help because then at that point, now these 17, 18 year olds are making decisions that aren't impact seeing them as much like the anchor who said she only paid 7,000, $7,500. If it was per year, per semester for her wake forest degree, that was, you know, a smart move. Even if it wasn't our history, it was still a smart move because in the end she didn't have debt that was gonna carry on for decades

Daphné Vanessa (34:18): And what she didn't mention. But I, I can hear she's from our dear lovely south I'm from the south too. Is that for her? That was a hard decision because in the south, especially where she was, she's going to wake forest, everybody's saying go to duke. Duke is like, when you go to the south saying that you went to duke is like one of the best schools that you can go to, like duke Emery and rice, I think are the top schools in the south from memory. And we don't count Florida as the south. I'm so sorry, Florida.

Shamil Rodriguez (34:48): And so, oh man, he just just isolated a huge segment of our audience. no, no

Daphné Vanessa (34:54): I'm saying the south doesn't count Florida as a part of the south is what I was saying. I love Florida, everybody here know, but I am a huge fan of Florida, which I consider to be my second home. So I love Florida. I love Floridians. I'm saying that people that are traditionally from the south tend to exclude the state of Florida when they're talking about, you know, what is, and what is not the south anyways, I'm just saying, I said that because I didn't add like to that list, but is also an excellent school. So for her to go to wake forest, you know, because it was the best co like the best price, you know, not go to duke, even though it was more expensive and nothing like what it is today, but back then is a huge decision on her part.

Daphné Vanessa (35:43): Very well thought out. And you can tell from her background that she didn't come from the wealthiest family, but she still made it a point to make an affordable decision. So how can we get that train of thought and thinking into families across the nation, right education. And then if you're coming to school, without that education, you've already signed the papers, you already ended up at the expensive school. How are we educating people that are in that instance to make the right decision about debt going forward? And I think that's where there's a lot room for opportunity.

Shamil Rodriguez (36:19): Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think that's a really important part. I, I was happy to hear that her family was able to plan for her to go to school and they both like grandparents and parents helped her pay. Now we, we all know that from the guests that we've had on the show that that's not always the same case. Right? So that's, that's one privilege that she was able to take advantage of. And that's good because that's what it's there for. She had that blessing and that's, that's magnificent. The other part, Daphne, if you don't mind, I wanna transition over to one, the beginning of that clip, where they had spoken about like the trades, right? Plumbers, electricians, welders, mechanics, right? All these specialties, the future,

Daphné Vanessa (36:57): Let, call it the future because the, yeah, that,

Shamil Rodriguez (37:00): Well, I, cause we, sorry, go ahead. No, cause we've spoken about this topic before, and this has come up and we've been advocating for this as well on the podcast because that they hit it. They, they said it so well where I was like, that's such a great way to say it, that we really have, from what I've seen, really like poo-pooed on the specialties and are like, oh four year degrees the way to go. But then when you see what the special, the trade crafts are making, and if you are, if you just have some sort of business acumen or work for somebody else who has business acumen, you can do well for yourself in your family and not take out a to student loan debt. And we see that now with, you know, the coding and program and the science, the stem area, really taking on that, that, that, that new vibe as well. But let's not forget that that it really is something that I think people should really seriously consider pursuing when they're looking at what the cost of education in college goes for.

Daphné Vanessa (37:55): Absolutely. Absolutely. And then just to touch on the Chicago piece that they tried to what did they try to do? Incentivize people to move back to Chicago? First of all, guys, everybody in cold places, there's an Exodus happening news flash. It's cold. It's going to be hard to persuade people to live in the cold when they've been boxed up for a year and a half, sorry to to talking about the student loan incentive. I agree that it might not be long term because okay, they'll come, they'll get the benefit. And then they leave. Like, I'm sorry, I didn't understand what they were trying to accomplish there, how they could get like to stay

Shamil Rodriguez (38:46): There. Well, may maybe they could be a guest. Honestly, I, I, I was motivated to be like, I wanna speak to this person to see what their idea was to think that 25 million from the state budget was gonna be sufficient to attract people to stay. And if the argument is that they're gonna pay property tax, I doubt that if somebody who's moving into the state of Illinois or any state for that matter, simply for the student loan benefit is going to be purchasing a home where they're paying property taxes, they likely rent an apartment true. right. Like I just wanted to put that out there. Like I, you know, I, I'm no subject matter expert on public policy, but I, you know, I do, I can follow the logic there for my undergrad career. And that, that argument just seemed to fall flat on its face, as soon as they were saying it. I don't know. But that just me,

Daphné Vanessa (39:36): I think you're completely right. And I think another question to ask is those. They said 25 million of their budget. Well, what percentage of that is in Illinois, it's gotta, it's way more than 25 million is what I'm saying. Like the, yeah.

Shamil Rodriguez (39:53): I I'm hoping that it's higher. I'm hoping they misspoken is said 25 billion, but , I dunno.

Daphné Vanessa (39:59): That's no, what state would allocate that much money towards this, this program? This I'm going to be

Shamil Rodriguez (40:07): Quiet. No. Well, you know what, that's why we're bringing up this topic on the P loan podcast, right? That's exactly what we're doing. So I hope everyone enjoyed this episode and the way we, and about it, because these are, like we said, when we introed this, this episode, the topic seems to go up and down to the alone forgiveness, how do we tackle it? What's the government's responsibility versus what's the responsibility of the student and the lenders, what's their responsibilities and their practices. It we're, we're really kind of going around in what I've heard. All the clips from both opposing both views was that there still were some similarities, the agreement that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. But what I do see is that we need to continue to bring this topic up to the forefront until we have a long term solution. And, and I just think that I'm hopeful that we will address the symptoms and the source. Cause if we do that, then I think we can agree. I hope we can agree that the cost of education is too high. And the idea of giving teenagers, the ability to make these adult decisions that'll impact them for decades is just not the right way to go.

Daphné Vanessa (41:12): That's absolutely correct. I love that you ended there with the similarities on what people are agreeing with. That's absolutely true. Let's see what comes out of this. Stay tuned guys on the student loan podcast to see how this issue progresses. I mean, it's not an issue. It's like part of life, unfortunately, but stay, stay with us to follow it anyways. And really like, what's in it for you. Like, how are we fixing this while the government is arguing on both sides? How are you taking care of your life? And I think that's why we're here. We're here to fill in the gap. Like if the government forgives student loan debt and we don't have to work anymore, I would, that, that would be amazing. I would go play the piano on a beach all day and move on with life. But I think that this is a problem that needs to be solved. And while the government is fighting about it, how can we everyday people organize our finances, take action steps so that we eventually become student loan debt free. And hopefully one day financially independent. That's, that's the number one goal. But first let's get rid of this debt.

Shamil Rodriguez (42:33): I'd agree well said, Daphne. All right. So for more information, if you wanna actually watch these clips yourself or share them amongst people that you think would this matters to visit the student loan podcast.com/episode 58, that's the P loan podcast.com/episode 58.