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Daphné Vanessa

Shamil Rodriguez



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About This Episode

Today Daphné Vanessa (@daphnevanessa) and Shamil Rodriguez (@shamilrodriguez) discuss how universities can help their students land the jobs they want.

The links to each article discussed in the article can be found below so you can take a deep dive for yourself.



  • Why more students and graduates aren’t working in their fields;
  • Developing a better employment pipeline for students;
  • Soft skills that if overlooked can harm student employment opportunities;
  • And much more…

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Resources from this Episode:

The Student Loan Podcast Intro (00:00): Welcome to the student loan podcast. Here, you'll find practical advice on tackling student loan debt, paying down your higher education expenses and inspiring

The Student Loan Podcast Intro (00:11): Stories about paying off student loans. We're your hosts, Daphne, Vanessa and Shamil Rodriguez. Welcome to the student loan podcast where your host Daphne Vanessa and Shamil Rodriguez. And let's talk about student loans before we begin. This is not professional advice.

Shamil Rodriguez (00:33): And we speak from our own personal views and opinions. So don't get it twisted.

Daphné Vanessa (00:39): The student loan podcast is a forum so that we can talk about student loans, education costs, graduation, career objectives, and overcoming education debt burden so that you can achieve the goals of your dreams. The student loan podcast is brought to you by start new, where you can serve your community and get rewarded with tuition and student loan payments to check out if start new is on your campus, visit start new.com.

Shamil Rodriguez (01:09): Last week we had Brendan Miller and immigration consultant from Canada on the show to share why Canada should be on your list of options to consider when looking at colleges or graduate school other than being Hm. Let's say much colder than what we deal with here in the states. As you'll see from Daphne's comments during the episode, Brandon made compelling points to keep in mind. So visit the sit alone podcast.com/episode 38, for more details

Daphné Vanessa (01:38): This week we're discussing what universities can do to help their students land the jobs that they want. So without further ado let's get started,

Daphné Vanessa (01:50): The school

Daphné Vanessa (01:51): Year is just around the corner for so many universities in the United States. Your university is probably in some sort of strategic planning execution mode, right? We have new student orientation, right? People are moving into residence halls. Exactly.

Shamil Rodriguez (02:11): And getting used to what's going to be the new normal for this semester, right? Yes, exactly. So think about that all in person. So much to figure out what can also be a top of mind or priority, because it's not just from the student perspective, but also the administration that's making this experience real is the career services office. Right? Getting you jobs because let's be honest. Most people in the U S are going to college to get a job. Right? Definitely.

Daphné Vanessa (02:40): Well, there are a few philosophers out there who are in the pursuit of education for the purpose of education. We love you guys too. No, exactly right. Well, there are, let's talk about where, who, who who's thinking about this. So I agree said career services, offices. I would also think that sort of the top of the university university president, the, those types of people, the executive office kind of care what the outcomes of their student population is because that's also a reflection of how successful a university is.

Shamil Rodriguez (03:18): Mm, no, absolutely. And I think that that really trickles the down actually from top to bottom and all the way across the board for the entire team, because that's a part of why we're here, right? Every university or school is welcoming new students. Like we said, student orientation, getting people ready, prepared to move into their halls. In my mind, as a person, who's seen it from different perspectives. This is all training for the real real world at some point in your life, right? If you're the student, if you're in school right now, you know, moving into residence hall, this might be the first time you're leaving home. You know, and if you are somebody who's helping someone now you're in that perspective of being the veteran, who knows how to live by yourself, or live away from home and trying to help con console your, your classmates or your peers and helping them just get acclimated to being here.

Shamil Rodriguez (04:08): But then another part of that as well is from the administration perspective. And like you said, the presidents and the rest of the administration really is what, what is the school doing to make sure everybody gets started on the right foot, right? It's the beginning of semester, the momentum is there. Everyone is getting prepared to, to step off on the right foot. So there needs to be systems in place which include meeting with your, with your counselor, meeting with your professors. If you do that before classes, right? Making sure that your financial aid packages, everything is also squared away. The first couple weeks of school can kind of be a bit of a whirlwind, honestly. So I think it's really important that we're going over this because school is just a right around the corner. Absolutely.

Daphné Vanessa (04:53): And from an administration perspective, there is a lot of work going on to get students ready. So before the committee meetings start up, there's a lot of work in advance of those meetings. So we're hopeful that this episode will be really useful for the audience to sort of hear how universities can take clear steps to help students get jobs that they want likely hopefully jobs in the field of study, but definitely jobs that are wanted. So first let's talk about why aren't more graduates working in their field in the first place.

Shamil Rodriguez (05:33): That's a good question. Why are they working in their field in the first place happening?

Daphné Vanessa (05:38): So first type of feedback that we've received, or just from users that we've directly connected with. And some stories that we heard were that students just had a general lack of interest in what they were studying or change their interests, which is normal, right? U S because in the United States, the gap year is not as celebrated of a concept. People go straight into college and by going straight into college from secondary school, you're missing out on an opportunity potentially to reassess life, think about what you actually want to do and decide if a career path or even college by the way is for you. And so in that rush, it's normal that you would change your mind at some point in your major. And that's very common. I changed my major.

Shamil Rodriguez (06:34): Absolutely. I think that's something that you see a lot. And one, one area that I would want to highlight there on that idea, Daphne, is that when you're changing your mind, how hard is it to, or how easy should it be to change your mind when you haven't even worked in that field in the first place, right? You're making these decisions. And not everyone. I know some people have gotten their internships before they even got the school, or like maybe they shadowed someone in the field, like we've mentioned in different episodes, right. To get some experience so that you, that you have a better understanding of what the day-to-day is going to be like when you finally start working in the field that you studied. So let's say you weren't that person, let's say you got into school, you watch a couple movies, or you met some people that you thought were cool, or you Google, which jobs make the most money, or which fields make the most money.

Shamil Rodriguez (07:22): And then when you finally get there and you're sitting at the office and you're going, wait, oh yeah, this isn't for me. You know? And I think that that's what we're trying to help avoid. Right? Let's help you figure that out now. So that by the time you do graduate from the student perspective, if you're in school or from the administration perspective, help your students figure this out before they graduate so that they have a better chance of one retaining them as soon as while they're going through their experience. Because if they feel like they're working towards something they want to do, you're going to want to stay in school longer. And then if not, when you graduate, at least you're landing in a job that you have an idea of what you will be doing on a day-to-day basis. So you've had yourself to prepare yourself mentally beforehand. What do you think Daphne, for

Daphné Vanessa (08:06): That piece of user based feedback where students were saying, you know, I just wasn't interested. That's why this job didn't work out. I think that is really a Testament to thinking well, as a university, how can we identify changes in interest early so that we can take steps towards guiding students towards a career that they would want. So if you identify a change, interests is the university immediately taking steps to offer opportunities in that new field of interest, or if the student is still undecided, perhaps the change was undecided. Then what actions are being taken by the university to learn about the student, to see where skills are, what their natural talents are, what they enjoy doing to point them in a career that they might like. So there are actions that a university can take their actions that students can take, and hopefully together, those can lead to students getting the jobs that they want out of school.

Shamil Rodriguez (09:16): Yeah. I think that's a really well said, Daphne, and just keep in mind that the ideas that everyone has an opportunity to gain experience in one way or another, and it doesn't only have to be through your career counselor's office. Right. I just want to make sure that we emphasize that if you are going to school and you know, your first day of school was coming up in a few weeks, remember you live in a neighborhood. That means that there are non-profits. That means that there are businesses. That means that there are people in the area that you could actually reach out to because depending on where you're located, you might have somebody who does what you do. And so you may be able to take a sneak peek into the future as to what your job might be in. Even if you have that lack of interest, which is what we've heard, right. Ideas change. But that's one of the major reasons that we've heard through our anecdotes of why more graduates aren't working in their field.

Daphné Vanessa (10:07): And so the next reason is not being located in the market of interest. So maybe you attended college in city, a but the job of your dreams, the majority of, of high paying career opportunities for that industry, or maybe on a coastal city, not where your university is. And so that makes it challenging. Those are really interesting way of putting it. Well, I mean, I don't want to be biased towards coasts, but a lot of career opportunities exist on the two coasts. So, but for people that are interested in industries and study that industry, maybe, but you're not located in that area. That could be a challenge depending on your background, right? If you are from a family that can afford to help you get to interviews and things like that, that's one opportunity. But if you are a first generation college student where that sort of extra financial help is not in the cards for you, that may be a challenge. And so when we think about equity for students and offering opportunities for everybody, we have to think about all types of students, not only students who are well supported by family members financially.

Shamil Rodriguez (11:34): Yeah. And I think that you make an interesting point there, definitely because this one really ties into the second one as well. Right. Being, having that affordability issue. But I think that sometimes it may be like where you got into school as well. Right. And this being located somewhere else, or if you changed your mind while you were in school, well, maybe that school doesn't have the best pipeline for going into that market later on to the future. Like you said, what if it's located on the coast and you're not in the, on the coast or vice versa, it could be on the other side of the country, all of those things are real considerations. And I mean, with the internet, with computer labs and most schools, you may have to be a bit more creative if you don't already have those digital resources that all allow for you to participate in the market in that way.

Shamil Rodriguez (12:16): But I think that it's really important to know that, you know, location is important, right? And I've heard the same before that the best ability is availability. And if you don't have that availability to go and be somewhere or attend a conference or a show up for an event or speaking, maybe there's a partner at a firm that you're trying to go to and they're speaking at an event and you want to be there so you can meet them. Right. What if you can't go to be there, right? So these things really do impact your ability, because if you are in front of the decision makers, they're going to know who you are and once they know who you are and you apply, it makes it just that much warmer in terms of the lead to get into that job that you're looking to get as a student.

Shamil Rodriguez (12:59): And so I think it is important for schools to keep in mind, Daphne it, even if they may not be located in a major metropolitan area that has this field of study, they should think of ways to support their students to be out and in front of the decision-makers that are in the spaces for those students, whether it be sponsoring them to go and attend conferences. And that was a big fan of that for us. You know, for me, at least in particular, we used to you know, apply to student government to support us, to go to conferences across the country so that we could be out there. And a lot of our club members ended up getting jobs in the field because of that. Right. And so you end up meeting a lot of people, you network that way, and you never know which other classmates, other peers that other students from other schools that are attending these conferences.

Shamil Rodriguez (13:46): Well, they, they find opportunities and they may be asked for recommendations or referrals, and you might be the person that they refer. So that's why it's important to be out there. And it's just as important. It's not just the student's job to figure it out, especially if they can't, it is really up to the schools to say, well, how can we get our students in front of decision makers and not just digitally, but how can we send them now that things are going back to the new normal way. We'll see how that actually works out, obviously in a safe and healthy way, but how do we get them in front of decision makers so that they can see what their field is like? They can ask those, those decision makers directly, Hey, what is your day to day? Like, what is it like to live here? What is this market like? You know, what's the affordability of being in this market. All those things are really important decisions that students and the administration needs to work together to make happen. And

Daphné Vanessa (14:37): So if you're not in that area, what are some actions that can be taken? And so on the university side, maybe there's a conversation where you start to understand your student population a little bit more, maybe through your deans or the administrator that's assigned to the student, learning a little bit more about the students, fail ability and opportunities to see, okay, they're interested in a job that is 50,000 miles away. I've just invented a random number. Geography. I need some lessons clearly, but not where the university is located. What steps can the university take to help students like this, right? Not just this individual student, but students in this profile. And then long-term thinking strategic thinking, what analyses are being done to say, okay, we probably have about 27% of our population that fits this profile of a type of student that may be interested in a job outside of their area.

Daphné Vanessa (15:49): What type of grants are available to support students like this? What type of funding can the university get from an endowment, maybe to help support that? What type of student led initiatives or other creative ways can help these students or on the other side, how can the university help contribute to making school more affordable so that students are able to, to make those trips? So there are a lot of different ways that a university can think about solutions for students who are not located in a market of interest, but want to land the job. It's just about the opportunity to be able to interview

Shamil Rodriguez (16:33): Well, I think that's a great point. And I, I think this to me lends itself to the next, the next part of a story that we heard about not being affordability and not being in the market. You know, I, I had a really great conversation with someone who shared with me that they were not in the field that they wanted to study because of the ability to not afford to go there. Right? And so the time period that it took from graduation to go through interviews, to try to find the job in the field of study that they wanted to go into, they couldn't afford to stay where they were living. So they had to move back home, which unfortunately wasn't near the jobs that she was interviewing for. Right. And so I think that those, that was a really good example of how, you know, affordability can really play a role in Daphne had hinted at this beforehand that there's like this assumption, because you're there in school that you can now, you know, you have the support system to be able to fly here, fly there, drive here, drive there, apply here, apply there.

Shamil Rodriguez (17:38): But you know, there's really a difference in being able to live. And especially in some of these bigger markets, Daphne, right? Like if you're talking about moving to San Francisco or moving into New York, right. Or DC, these are not cheap cities to live in. And so, you know, you've got to make sure you want to have a plan. If you are looking to move to those cities, have a plan beforehand. If you can, and work it out with your family, if you can. But if you can't, then you have to work with your school. You have to write, you have to look at them as your extended family and this situation, because guess what your success is their success, right. And everyone wants to see you succeed. So I think it's really important that as a student, you communicate that with your career counselor, you communicate that with your professors that might be interested in the field that you are going into or in that field.

Shamil Rodriguez (18:27): Right. And let them know, Hey, look, I really love this job interview I got, or I really liked this company that I'm targeting. But right now I have a big issue. I don't know how I'm going to actually buy the ticket to go there. How am I going to live there for the time it takes to get there? You know, what can I do so that I don't put myself at a disadvantage since I can't be there for an extended period of time. Right? And you might, you might see people come up with really creative ideas, whether it be helping with housing, whether it be helping you with transportation or helping you find grants, or, or maybe helping you find like a research opportunity with another professor in the meanwhile. So you can live closer to that market. I mean, the list goes on and on, but it doesn't happen unless you ask.

Shamil Rodriguez (19:08): And then on the flip side, it doesn't happen if, as a career counselor or or anyone else in administration, if you're not figuring this, this out about your students, if you're not having conversations with your students to find out and say, Hey, what are your next steps? What are your plans? And, and not, by the way, not in March, like, don't ask these questions to your students the spring semester, before they graduate, right. Be out there, ask them, you know, as they're going when the school year starts, if it's their last year or the spring semester during their third year, if they're only there for four years, right. Really get in there and ask those questions so that you're not caught off guard guard. And then saying later, I wish I had known earlier, right? These conversations can happen sooner so that your students can graduate and go into the field that they want to study because it broke.

Shamil Rodriguez (19:56): It broke my heart to hear that the person wasn't in the field, they want it to be in. So they changed fields completely. And now they're, you know, they're doing well in another area, but it wasn't what they really had planned and what they went to school for. And because they couldn't move into that market that would allow for them to pursue and grow in their career. They literally gave up on that for now. And so we want to try to help prevent that. And I think that it has to be some sort of combination of students speaking up and sharing that with, with their professors that are in the field that are career counselors, but then career counselors and professors and anyone else in the administration making it comfortable. So the students can actually have that conversation with you on the phone.

Daphné Vanessa (20:38): And students also have the option of transferring. And while this is not a comfortable conversation for a university administrator, students have to really assess, well, if I've changed my major or my interest is now getting a career in a city where my university is not located, does it make sense to transfer so that I can get a job in the city that I want? And so that's an uncomfortable conversation, but potentially very productive. And that could end up making both sides win. Because if that student stays, they don't help the statistics of the university in terms of graduates. But if they leave and go on to do exactly what they wanted to do, then it's a positive example of a successful transfer students. So there are options for students as well. If you're thinking that you want a job in a particular city, you're still a student and you don't have that opportunity, or you've done research.

Daphné Vanessa (21:51): And you realize that the majority of job offerings right now for your career choices in city, a, is there a university in city a that you can transfer to that will give you the degree that you want it? Are there other ways that you can sort of do a short term program? I remember somebody did this in my law school where he wanted to work in the city where I went to law school. And so he did his last semester as a visiting student genius. So it was a great move. So he still graduated from that other school, but because he was a visiting student, he was able to interview, get the network, everything and get the job that he wanted. So that's another opportunity for administrators actually is to expand your visiting students partnerships. So what other universities are you partnering with? What other institutions do you have pipelines? These are opportunities to help your students get the jobs that they want in their fields, which in turn makes you as a university look. Very good.

Shamil Rodriguez (23:02): I think that was well said very well said. And that's a great way to kind of, it's like a hack for the system to get out and be available right back to that idea as the best ability is availability. But I think this is like, I feel like I'm getting so heavy in these topics. And so I wanted to bring up this other area that came out from a job outlook survey. Right. And I don't know if you guys have ever heard this situation happened before, right. But everybody wants an 18 year old, fresh out of college, but with 20 years of experience, right. So you're graduating, but they want more experience in the workforce than you have available. That was one of the things that, that student's lack of demonstrable experience was one of the reasons why more graduates weren't working in their field. So Daphne, do you want to just share a little bit more about, about that idea, that survey and why students were being, you know, were saying that they, there was a lack of demonstrable experience. This

Daphné Vanessa (24:00): Is not something that is foreign, but the national association of colleges and employers are the organism is the organization that did this survey. And this survey looked at graduating seniors and employers to see, based on a certain number of competencies, were these students ready for the workplace? And they found that employers did not feel that students were ready for the workplace. And so in this piece, small data set, right? It's not representative of every employer, every student, every graduating senior, it's a snippet into the minds of some employers that appear to think that students lack eight core competencies. And so the university question is how are you working on these competencies to make sure that your students are prepared for the workforce? What sort of experiential learning do you have to close the skills gap in key areas? These are some of the questions that your strategic planning sessions can begin to ask and address so that the student body is ready for these roles. And a lot of universities have done great work in this space, for example, creating writing centers

Speaker 5 (25:34): And all sorts of

Daphné Vanessa (25:36): Organizations and groupings and, and getting experts on campus. So there's a lot that has been invested in this space. I've seen it just in my experience with universities, but there's a lot of opportunity that can come, particularly in the area of experiential learning, where you give students the ability to get the hands-on experience that they would get in a similar work environment. And that's probably one of the easiest ways that you can start to ensure that your students are ready for the workforce. By putting them in that position. They are forced to have things like professionalism, work ethic, understanding that summers are not off like basic concepts. That can be a shock for people going straight from high school to college, to the workforce, to transition people a little bit more smoothly by giving them that learning experience. And a lot of universities and colleges have great programs in this, but there there's opportunity for growth still.

Shamil Rodriguez (26:53): No, absolutely. And I think one of the really interesting points of the survey they set out to me were how the employers rated themselves in terms of their proficiency, like their students, the employers rating, the students, their graduates, and then the students considering themselves to be proficient. Right. So you've got the people that are like, oh, I just graduated from school. I don't know, professionalism. I have a hard work ethic. I have great written and oral skills. Of course I do. And then the employer is like, well, no, you don't. And so just the point of that, because I thought it stood out to me and we'll include this link in the show notes, so you can check it out yourself. But it was funny to think that the percentage of students who considered themselves to be proficient in professionalism and work ethic was 89.4%. Whereas their employers rated them as 42.5% proficient. And

Daphné Vanessa (27:43): That's because if you went straight from secondary to college university, and then you start working, you likely don't know what professionalism is. Just honestly, it's a lack of knowledge and experience if you've never had a real job. And so you're going to think, oh, well, compared to school, I think I'm being professional, but there are one professional is such a subjective term. Let's just clear that out of the water. We also want to think about generational differences, where when people are younger, they tend to just have the world that, that they know, but they haven't experienced as much as people that have more experience perhaps. And so the question is, is that younger individual aware of different generations and how different generations value, different types of work ethic. So maybe the silent generation values a type of work ethic. That's different from baby boomers. That's different from generation X. That's different from millennials and not to stereotype a whole generation of people, but there tend to be trends in terms of, for certain, for certain generations expecting certain things of younger generations. All this is from experience, ladies and gentlemen, as I am a millennial. So

Speaker 5 (29:15): I'm not

Daphné Vanessa (29:17): Throwing shade, I'm not throwing shade. I'm saying I've been there. I'm saying, I'm saying I have been there. And I know what it's like for to think that you're doing the right thing and for people of different generations to think that you're not, that's just the honest truth. So professionalism work ethic, these are subjective terms, but the, at the end of the day, if these are jobs that you want, then you're going to want to please those people. So there's that?

Shamil Rodriguez (29:45): Yeah, that's a really good point. One other stat that I wanted to bring up that I thought was interesting there was that on the flip side were employers thought students were better at something that students didn't think they were that good at or on is not as good as it, the employers thought in terms of percentages of the survey was actually in digital technology. Right. It's I just find it really interesting because oftentimes you'll see, like, there's just like really from my experience, Daphne, I don't know about you, but it's like anywhere I go where the employer population is much higher older, there's just like this assumption. It's like, oh, you're young. You know how to deal with technology. Like, you know, do this thing with this technology. Whereas in the survey 59.9% of the students consider themselves to be proficient, right. Good amount.

Shamil Rodriguez (30:33): And then 65% are nearly 66% of employers found them to be proficient. So the employers had much more confidence in the student's ability in digital technology. I just found that interesting because it's something that I hear a lot in terms of anecdotes and like my personal experience. But I just find that interesting that there's a survey here that shows what I perceive or I'm interpreting as this idea that, you know, oh, the younger generation one, they do have more exposure because they're in classes and they should be, you know, dealing with some of the latest tools that are out there in their profession, depending on what, where they're going to study. But I found that interesting as an interesting point, what do you think Def

Daphné Vanessa (31:12): There was a lot of difference in opinion, and that's what surveys are, are documented opinions. So I think we can leave that where it is. I did want to bring up the competencies because we keep mentioning the eight competencies so that people are on the same page. If you're listening to this while driving or cooking or taking care of somebody, I wanted to share what the competencies are so that, you know, and you can check later when you have a chance. So those were first professionalism and work ethic, secondly, oral and written communications, third critical thinking and problem solving for teamwork and collaboration, five leadership, six digital technology, seven career management and eight global intercultural fluency. So those were the core competencies that were used for this evaluation. And it was interesting the gaps between the graduate views and the employer views. Okay.

Shamil Rodriguez (32:19): No, I definitely absolutely agree with that. Daphne. I thought it was a really good survey. So I hope you guys enjoy that. If you get to take a look at it in the show notes, or we're going to have a link to it as well, but let's talk about the next steps there. Definitely. Yes.

Daphné Vanessa (32:32): So now we know why graduates aren't working in their fields. We kind of covered a variety of now let's get to the tactical concise. What can universities do to produce employment ready graduates? So step one, we kind of mentioned this before, but take the steps to develop your pipelines. So those can be pipelines partnerships with other universities. Like we talked about, those can be pipelines with employers. Those can be pipelines with organizations that have connections with employers, but take the step to really map out what your pipeline strategy is as a university to get your students to the next step. And by the way, this is not only for jobs. I would take this a step further to say some of our students are going straight to work. Other students are going to the next degree. So what does the pipeline program look like for those students as well? There are organizations that prepare students for medical school, law school, dental school,

Speaker 5 (33:42): I guess what all the schools.

Daphné Vanessa (33:45): So what are the steps that the university has? And for a lot of the, the graduate next steps, my experience has been, the universities have very robust well-documented processes for that, for the dream career quote, step, I think there might be some opportunity for improvement. So that's hopefully an opportunity to think about pipelines.

Shamil Rodriguez (34:10): You know, I think it's a, you bring up a good point there and developing the pipeline also has to be this holistic perspective to where we just talk about the competencies in that survey. Right. And so what are some other, what I call like supportive programs for these pipelines, right? What are what's on the fringe that helps your students stand out? Right. And so think about, are there programs out there that help with professionalism right. Having dinner and what is the, what is it like to have a professional dinner? Do you know what the table setting is? Like, I know that seems really simple and off, like, what is he talking about? But I've met employers that have spoken up and shared stories about people that they have interviewed that have lost their job opportunity because of how they ate at a, at a networking event with that person at dinner right now you might be so that's so weird, but no, if, if you have a job that's client facing, that's going to turn some people off.

Shamil Rodriguez (35:08): And the, the, the job is not going to want to take a chance of you losing business for them, because you don't know how to eat in a professional setting in that way in the, and we know with those people in front of you. So I say that for schools, because we should make sure that these fringe, you know, supportive pipeline programs that I consider, right. There was another competency, intercultural awareness, right? What are you doing to prepare your students for dealing with people that are not like them, right? How easy is it for us to be in our bubble? And I think it's really important. And I think these are some of those indirect ways that schools can have a profound impact on their students' ability to, to not just find a job, but Excel in their jobs, by finding them, not just the study abroad, not just sending them abroad and saying, okay, now you've, you've gone abroad.

Shamil Rodriguez (35:58): Now, you know all about this other country. No. Think about ways that you can help infuse different cultures, right? Diversity and inclusion programs, right. Exposure, getting your students out there so they can understand and incorporating that culture from another place into either the school, into any program that you can think of. Right. Because it that's one of the competencies that was being measured. Think about how our global society forces us to interact with people that don't look like us. So it's easy to go. Like Daphne had mentioned to go from high school here in the states to go right from college and then go for it from colleges to the workforce and never see anybody that doesn't look like you or work with people that don't, you know, have different perspectives or grow up from different backgrounds. So I think that's just something, I don't know, Daphne, if you have any thoughts on, on, you know, that, that perspective, but I think that to me, those indirect supportive pipeline programs are really important too. It's not just knowing the, the businesses that can hire your students. That is important. Obviously that's like the given, but what's the other stuff. And I think that those core competencies are really good ways to figure out how you can partner with other programs or, or consultants to help improve your students' chances to not just get the job, but do much better than they would have without the support from your school.

Daphné Vanessa (37:18): I love that. I think that is such a good idea. I would, if any university is interested in doing an etiquette class and needs volunteers, please call me. I can be reached at 9 1 7 3 1 0 18 58.

Speaker 5 (37:35): So,

Daphné Vanessa (37:35): But no, I think that's a fantastic idea. It really shows the, the little things that people aren't paying attention to that are difference makers that can get some people, jobs and other people disqualified. So thank you for bringing that up. That's a great point. Next on our list is to prepare your students. And we kind of hinted at this with developing the pipeline. So we will not spend as much time here, but adding onto what Schmo said, we're preparing students for those opportunities, whether it be fringe benefits, whether it be core competencies, whether it be soft skills, et cetera, all of these different types of ways students need to be prepared. And that's not only academically, but all of the other ways that students appear. And so is that teaching what professionalism means in different industries is that teaching etiquette classes is that teaching the Fox trot guys, we don't know. It depends on the industry.

Speaker 5 (38:44): That's a no

Daphné Vanessa (38:47): Depends on the industry. So there needs to be a lot more real life preparation for students. And is this a required course? Is this an option? All of those are things that the university needs to think about how it fits into your strategy

Shamil Rodriguez (39:06): Plan. Absolutely. I think that it is really important that schools think about how they should incorporate this into their program. I'm not even a big fan of it being optional. Honestly, that's just my opinion, strictly just an opinion on that, because to suggest that the soft skills are not going to be covered before you graduate is like saying, I'm not going to prepare you for the workforce. So there has to just be a way prior to graduation that this happens and you, you brought up a good point that made the reminded me Daphne, especially with the legal field that just stood out like what's professionalism based on what field you're going into. Because before going to law school, I just didn't know. There was an expectation of what types of colors of suits you had to wear, right? What, what types of clothing women were expected to wear in front of a judge?

Shamil Rodriguez (39:54): And I'm not to say that, that those things aren't going to change over time, but you don't necessarily have to be that change agent coming out of college. When you're looking for a job with zero years of experience, I'm just saying you know, go from within. But my point is, I do think that schools need to take this seriously so that their students are set up for success. And that's, that's a really big, big idea. That was a really good point. And by incorporating it into the curriculum at some point, especially before graduation, right? Whether it's the semester before you graduate or the fall before we graduate, like just incorporate some sort of program that's talking about workforce development or like etiquette in the workforce, whatever you want to call it, but bringing those consultants like Daphne for etiquette to help you, help your students get ready for success in the workforce.

Daphné Vanessa (40:43): I love that. I do think you can be a change agent though, straight out of

Speaker 5 (40:49): School. So again, I just

Shamil Rodriguez (40:54): I just don't think that you necessarily have to come in with like a crop top or, you know, wearing whatever you think you want to wear at the courthouse and then expect to win the case if that's what you're going to do.

Daphné Vanessa (41:06): No, no, I think that it's really useful to find out what professionalism standards exist in your industry. Because for example, not everybody would have known that for some thing, most courthouses in the us women have to wear a skirt suits. Pant suits are not allowed. Apparently I hope that changes soon though, because that's, that's a whole other conversation, ladies and gentlemen, but that is example of professionalism being something completely different. Versus if you work in-house at another company, pantsuits

Speaker 5 (41:40): Are completely fine. So, so

Daphné Vanessa (41:43): All about where you are, what the standard is, what the culture is. Even when companies are saying casual, casual for a company that used to wear suits, I'm sorry, it's just, it's not going to be crop tops and ripped jeans, by the way, this is a shout out to crop top Nicole, who you can find on the big queen energy podcast and

Speaker 5 (42:07): On the big shot

Daphné Vanessa (42:08): With Bethany, you guys should all watch that. It's a great example of wearing your unique style to an interview. Watch that, watch that we'll link that in the show notes.

Shamil Rodriguez (42:20): Absolutely. All right. And so with that being said, the third part, they wanted to make sure that we highlighted here was giving your students opportunities, right. Really opening the door for your students for success and what that may mean, whether it's helping them land a research opportunity. If they're looking to pursue a master's whether it's a student that wants to go in a specific field, right? The professors, and from my perspective are some of the most well-connected people that I've met when I was in school, because they're, they're writing about these topics. They're going to conferences on these topics, they're leading committees or organizations on these topics. I mean, so you really should think about how are you giving your students opportunities, right? And it shouldn't just be that the teacher or the professor just picks the student randomly out of the classroom. Right.

Shamil Rodriguez (43:12): But really think about how you're helping make it, what you're doing is you're helping create the luck is how I look at it. Something that I always talk about is not luck in the sense of, oh, it just fell into your lap. But as an administrator, how are you helping create the environment? That's gonna allow for that to be the case. And I know that from my experience, a lot of that came from, you know, allowing for us as students to attend dinners afterwards, we'd get speakers that used to come to our school or allowing for us to you know, pair up with a specific professor in your school or your career counselor was really good at knowing who the players were in different fields. So just make sure that, that you are thinking of ways to marry the two. And then, you know, from the residence hall perspective, as a former RA myself making sure that we are prepared and that we be RAs are prepared to know that.

Shamil Rodriguez (44:09): And that was something that they used to bring up was knowing who to refer people to, and then making sure you have those relationships. So, you know, please, please think of all the ways that your student interacts with your school. There should be a way for them to get an opportunity through any interaction they have with the university, whether it's their residence halls and their RAs, knowing, and posters and flyers that get posted, whether it be student government and helping get the word out that way, or some of the organizations, the professional organizations that exist, just making sure that they're paired up with the professors that are leading the industry at your school so that they're getting the support that they need and the connections that they need to pursue the opportunities for the jobs that they want, the land.

Daphné Vanessa (44:51): And that ties in perfectly to the last way that universities can produce employment, ready graduates and students. And that is by giving students opportunities. And it can be opportunities the way that Chanel described them. And they can also be service opportunities, volunteering opportunities, any sort of opportunity that helps the student get closer to that concrete experience that they will have when they graduate is a win-win. So that is our advice on not professional advice, by the way, but speaking from our personal experience, how universities can produce employment, ready graduates.

Shamil Rodriguez (45:40): Yeah. I love it. So if you guys have any questions for us, please let us know. You can find us that shamil@startnoo.com

Daphné Vanessa (45:47): Daphne@startnoo.com. And

Shamil Rodriguez (45:48): I did have a quick question for all our listeners out there that might be abroad. I'm actually curious to see if you are listening to this show outside of the United States, I would love for you to email us and let us know why or how you came across a student loan podcast, because it has been really interesting to see where you are all listening from. So I would love to hear your story. It would be fascinating for us. So with that being said, hopefully you'll reach out to us soon. And I would love to hear your story, but if you are interested in more information from today's episode, especially that link to the survey that we spoke about today, visit the student loan podcast.com forward slash episode 39. That's the student loan podcast.com forward slash episode 39. But before we go, we want us to leave you off with a message from a very special guest

Daphné Vanessa (46:35): Please rate, review and subscribe to The Student Loan podcast.

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