Claire Wasserman (00:00): Imagine you are a character in a movie, anytime that you are doubting yourself, you are nervous about something. If you were a character in a movie, you would be rooting for yourself and you'd have more, I think compassion like you, you'd say you go do it go because also do it for the story. You know, put yourself out there and whatever happens. It's gonna be part of this longer journey. It's gonna give you something that you learn.

The Student Loan Podcast Intro (00:27): Welcome to the student loan podcast.

Shamil Rodriguez (00:30): Here. You'll find practical advice on tackling student loan debt, paying down your higher education expenses and

Daphné Vanessa (00:37): Inspiring stories about paying off student loans. We're your host, Daphne,

Shamil Rodriguez (00:42): Vanessa and Shail Rodriguez.

Daphné Vanessa (00:46): Please rate, review and subscribe to the student loan podcast by visiting the student loan podcast on apple podcast or wherever you find your podcasts. This

Shamil Rodriguez (00:57): Is not professional advice. And we speak from our own personal views and, and opinions.

Daphné Vanessa (01:02): The student loan podcast is brought to you by start new, where you can serve your community and get rewarded with tuition and student loan payments to check out if start new is on your campus, visit start new.com. Welcome everyone to another addition of the student loan podcast. Today, we are so excited to have Claire Waserman author of ladies get paid. One of the foremost books on negotiation, career advancement, especially for women. So I'm super excited to have you on, so is Shail I'm sure I'm speaking on behalf of both of us. um, Claire, please introduce yourself to the audience. Although many of them probably know

Claire Wasserman (01:44): You already. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me and thank you everybody for joining. Um, so I, I have a company it's called ladies get paid. It's a, it's an educational platform, global community, and now a book, uh, that's all about helping women level up professionally. It's about helping women achieve financial freedom. It's about how helping women know that they can take command. You do not have to accept your circumstances. You really can move forward, uh, with intention and we're here to support you. Um, and I also, uh, I have a podcast with John Hancock called friends who talk about money and lots more to come in 2022.

Daphné Vanessa (02:21): So exciting. Um, so both before we get into all the good stuff, some let's start with some even better stuff, which is telling the audience about your personal story. So how did you get to the success that you have today from where you

Claire Wasserman (02:34): Started? Oh my goodness. How much time do we have your editors are like, oh God edit, edit, edit. long story short when I graduated and no, I did not have a five year plan. I even have a one year plan. I actually went to sorry, of O Bosnia with a friend of mine who was making a short film. And I said, I'm gonna raise money for you. And I'm gonna help market your film because I knew how to, I could do that. Well, found a mentor who then got me into experiential marketing because I realized in my fundraising, the thing I loved most was putting on events, uh, and getting people excited, right? And then out of doing experiential marketing, I, one of our clients, uh, ended up poaching me. It it's a company called the art directors club. It helps connect people in visual communications.

Claire Wasserman (03:16): It's a bit of a job network. Uh, and it was working there that I then found my next job, which I, it was a company called working, not working, which has now since been bought by fiber. Yep. Also helping people to find work. And throughout all of this, I did have the itch to create something on my own. I actually tried to have a startup. Um, and it lasted for about eight months. Uh, that's a whole other story I could say that it failed, but you know what it's turned into ladies get paid and what I learned and what it was absolutely got me here today. And I started ladies get paid in 2016. After about two years at that, uh, startup working out, working, just realizing I'm more interested in helping people thrive at their jobs, uh, than just get them the job. And of course, particularly for women statistics around the wage gap, leadership gap, investment gap, funding, gap, all the gaps that makes me angry enough to wanna do something. So I'd like to say, yeah, it's like I had a lot of frustration and I've just used it as fuel to solve a problem. Um, in, in a world of purpose, which is helping women level up

Daphné Vanessa (04:22): Love that you really turn sort of that anger into execution. Talk to the audience about how you did that and how you overcame the frustration to actually make it productive.

Claire Wasserman (04:34): Sure. Yeah. So I'll, I'll bring you back to like my aha moment, which I've had a series of them and, and those of you listening, just think back, like you we've all had turning points okay. Of realizations and then you have to do something. So the realization I had was I was at an advertising festival, fancy festival in the south of France. I, you know, at my old company I walk in and this older guy comes up to me and he says, well, hi, now whose wife are you? And it was like, oh, okay, that's what this is gonna be. And the entire week at this festival, it was just interaction of your interaction of people. Basically not taking me seriously. Um, you know, people objectifying me, just it being this uncomfortable power dynamic that, but I need business. That's the thing that people don't talk about.

Claire Wasserman (05:18): If you need something, you need a job, you need a client, you cannot just say, screw you. Right? So at the end of that week, I really reflected on the navigating, the contortion, the exhaustion that I went through and, you know, really reflected my whole career. Actually, I never wanted to straight out say, this is sexism or this is discrimination, but those smaller, sometimes imperceptible exp. Now I know they're called microaggressions, but this was around 2015 people really weren't talking about this stuff. And I ended up writing a little bit of an essay. I didn't publish it, but I did share it with some friends. And it was essay about me trying to understand my part, because a lot of those experiences that I'd had, I questioned if I caused them, right. Well, my dress was too short or I was being too friendly. Did I, you know, did it, did I deserve this?

Claire Wasserman (06:09): And when I shared it, that essay with some friends, you know, they wrote me back immediately and said, oh my gosh, this is exactly, you know, these are things I I've struggled with. Do you mind if I share it? And everybody kept sharing and sharing and I would get these emails from women. I didn't know, saying, wow, your essay really resonated with me. The next aha moment happened a full year after that, because what that essay did for me was it a showed me. I wast alone and B it got me just interested, interested in learning more around women and work. And I started to Google. I started to discover statistics around Hispanic women, making 55 cents to the dollar. And nobody was talking about it in 2015. The next aha moment a year later was a girlfriend of mine came to me. She was a freelance art director.

Claire Wasserman (06:56): And she said, wow. I just found out that I am charging so much less than my male counterparts for her. This was not so much discrimination as it was just lack of transparency. Didn't know what she was gonna charge. And second didn't feel like she was worthy of charging more. And at the time I was the director of marketing for working, not working.com. I was in a position where I could do something, at least just get people together. And when she came to me and said, I, you know, I wish I'd known how much to charge. I said, let's do an event. Let's host a town hall where women come and they talk about money, love it, facilitate people sharing. How much do you make? Like, I didn't even know what the conversation would evolve into. I just to know that it would, I just knew it was gonna be very powerful. After that event created a slack group incorporated a couple months later. And it's been now almost five years. We now have a hundred thousand women in the community from more than 50, from all 50 states, more than 120 countries. And they've exchanged over 2 million messages in that little slack group that I made after that first event, you know, in 2016. Wow.

Daphné Vanessa (08:03): No, yeah. Not wild. Yeah. It's wild. It's wild. And, and I may or may not know a few women who have participated in this, so I'm gonna try to shield my bias. Um, but one of my mentors early on in my career told me, you need a group of friends, women, professionals, where you talk about money, like a bunch of different banks. And my understanding is they got this from your group, but there's a group of them that are quite senior. And they represent, uh, different positions at, in the same industry, but at different companies. And so they're able to benchmark with each other to make sure that they're getting paid the right amount. And that ha wasn't done before, before you started this.

Claire Wasserman (08:47): I mean, I think it was happening, you know, hush, hush, you know, if you were able to, and, and here's the thing, companies are only as good as the employees that they have. Okay. So if the employees are unhappy, they're unproductive, they're leaving. That's not good for anybody. So what I'm also hoping in these conversations is that we realize our companies are not our adversaries. And that asking for more money does not need to be combative. It doesn't need to be a win lose, even just wanting more money in general doesn't mean you are taking from others. That's, that's a mentality. I've actually seen a lot of women in my community struggle with is if I say I wanna be rich, right. Do you think I'm greedy? Right. Cause that implies that I'm hoarding right. More for me means less for you, especially for women who work at nonprofit.

Claire Wasserman (09:35): There, there's a lot of shame around that. On top of it, shame of even just talking about money in general, cuz it's quote rude. Okay. So there's so many layers to this sort of conversation, but something that I love that you said where these were women in different, you know, companies, cuz that's the thing. If you just ask people at your own company that that can be skewed, you need to understand where based you are in the market. And the market does mean talking to people outside of your company and, and sometimes, you know, outside of your role, just an understanding of like, what does it mean to move up at that? You know, what are your next levels of pay and how do you get there? Love

Daphné Vanessa (10:09): That, love that. And so the reason why money is important partially is paying off student loan own debt. right. So we here at the student loan podcast really try to give people concrete tips so that they can get out of student loan debt. Do you mind sharing with the audience as they're trying to find a career that really excites them, that you know, that is a passion career. How do you balance that with also getting paid?

Claire Wasserman (10:38): Oh, great question. So I, I, we need to think, um, long term as well as short term. Okay. So if you need a job and you needed it tomorrow, of course I got fired from my first job, walked down the street and literally that day got a job as a hostess at a restaurant. Yeah. Like on that block, you know, you just need a job, you gotta get the job. Okay. Yeah. I also wanna say, you know, if you're somebody who has dependence, whether you're taking care of kids or your parents, you've got, you know, some health challenges. So there's a lot of extenuating circumstances. So I do find, we need to be careful in not prescribing advice, like follow your passion or your dreams. Like you gotta also like, will it, it depends reality.

Claire Wasserman (11:20): So I do wanna be clear about that. So, and I did graduate with at least, I wanna say at least 20,000, I wanna say it was more than that. So I did graduate with loans and I moved to New York and I didn't have any help hence working at the restaurant. So I, I do wanna, you know, acknowledge all of that. But if you think too short to term, what's gonna happen is you might make some money at this first job, but you get burnt out or you realize, you know what? I don't like this, but now what? And then you're a year, two, three years into your career and you start panicking. Is it too late? Did I build my network, you know, in the wrong industry. So, so let's keep an eye out. And by the way, it's never too late. Start with your budget now.

Claire Wasserman (11:58): Okay. So forget about any kind of job. I want you to look at all the things that you are gonna be spending money on, the things that you have to spend money on and the things you want to spend money on. Because at the end of the day, I think it's not so much what you make. It's what you spend. And so having a sense of that will allow you to decide what you are willing to sacrifice financially sacrifice. Because if you go in a direction that maybe you don't get paid much, but you love it. And it might be the stepping stone to something bigger and great. You're gonna feel comfortable saying yes, cuz you already did your budget and you see, you know what, I'm not gonna join the gym. I'm take some free classes on my right. So it's like just, don't jump into the job first, jump into your finances first.

Claire Wasserman (12:39): Um, and then I have a whole, you know, I, I teach a lot about how do you understand who you are and how to, you know, leverage your strengths in a direction, you know, of purpose and fulfillment and all that. But you know, to not take too much time, I would say very much follow a direction that you're just curious about, like articles, you find yourself constantly reading podcasts that you're listening to, you know, checking out, uh, guests on podcasts, um, speakers at conferences is somebody doing something interesting? And it could honestly just be a company that you think is cool, start networking. That is a direction to go in and come with questions. What is your day? Like, what are your challenges? So don't assume or think you need to know it all you shouldn't okay. It's really just what interests me and who can I meet that can help give me a little more information so I can decide if this is a direction I actually do wanna go in.

Speaker 5 (13:28): I think that's phenomenal advice, Claire. Thank you. And I think you're making me really go into this idea and I you've touched on it a couple times, so I really wanna make sure that we hit on this is the idea of what's the self worth and like understanding where it's coming from and having shame around certain issues. I clearly see that. And I'm thinking about if you could speak about like the behavioral psychology part of it, right. Um, like that, because I think that's bringing it back to certain you in the student loan podcast and, and how you approach paying for school in the first place. Right. Feeling worthy enough to ask for more, if your package doesn't make sense for you, uh, when you're going to school. So can you just speak about what are some of the obstacles that, that women may face as they are approaching, paying for school and then going into the

Claire Wasserman (14:17): Workforce? Um, well the good news ish is that, um, when we all graduate, no matter what your gender is, we all are pretty much getting paid the same. There's, there's not a gap until we get into middle management and past middle management actually. And there's a lot of factors that go into the wage gap. Um, and oftentimes it's because women tend to be in certain roles in certain industries, but as a society, we've just decided to pay less like retail, like teachers like nurses. So, you know, getting into the wage gap and things like that start to get a little bit, um, that's a whole other conversation, you know, it's just knowing that one decision you have to step back and holistically say kind of to my point before of, you know, forget about the job for a second, like where's your money going? And do you stand by those choices?

Claire Wasserman (15:03): And then where does money fit into it? But you know, without paying off debt, that's, you know, you don't really have money until you pay off. That being said, you should also, you should still be putting some money into, um, a retirement to a 401k, especially if it's being matched by your company. I know that you'll think I don't have enough to do that, but here's the thing a little bit today, which we all can afford just even just $10, just get into the habit, small amount over a to time compound interest happens. Yeah. So there's a snowball effect with that interest. So, you know, saying I can't afford it, I can't afford it. I think that's cuz you're thinking it needs to be a lot, both. You need to have a lot to give and that you will now make a lot it's it's, it's really like small amounts over time. Um, so I, you know, to speak to having debt and all also wanting to grow wealth, it can feel like you can never get out of the debt enough to build the wealth and you kind of have to do it concurrently if that makes sense.

Speaker 5 (16:01): Sure. No, I think that, that definitely does make sense. And I think what's important too, is that I, I would love to hear your, your opinion on the idea of negotiating with yourself really honestly, because one episode or one of some advice that we get or questions that we get actually often when it comes to student loans and paying for school is, you know, not feeling comfortable asking for more. And so how can someone get over that internal voice that says, ah, I don't feel comfortable asking for more, you

Claire Wasserman (16:29): Know, you miss a hundred percent percent of the shots you don't take. I that's a athletic sports book I don't, I don't do sports, but I do that quote. Yeah. Imagine you are a character in a movie, anytime that you are doubting yourself, you are nervous about something. If you were a character in a movie, you would be rooting for yourself and you'd have more compassion. Like you you'd say you go do it go because also do it for the story. Yeah. Don put yourself out there and whatever happens, it's gonna be part of this longer journey. It's gonna give you something that you learn. It's gonna, you know, listen, the person you may ask and let me give you an example. I once applied for a job and I interviewed, and I did not get the job, but you know what interviewed contacted me and said, I really believe in you.

Claire Wasserman (17:16): You were not. We had somebody else who made more sense for this, but if I can help you in any way, so you never, ever, ever know what's gonna happen. If you don't go for it. Mm-hmm um, also people want to give, they want to help they're scholarships for a reason. Okay. Also thinking beyond, you know, what are, are things that you can get, right? Again, if it's, you know, not money or something mentorship or career development, or maybe you can, you know, get an internship or participate in something like ha I, anything that I go through and it's not, it feels uncomfortable or it's not working for me. I go, how do I make this work for me? Mm-hmm and maybe I need to be more creative in how I approach it.

Daphné Vanessa (17:54): That's a great answer. Such good advice. Thank you. We should tweet. We should tweet some of that.

Claire Wasserman (18:01): I'm terrible at, at Twitter. So somebody

Daphné Vanessa (18:04): We will, we will tweet it. we'll figure it out. That was great. Thank you. yeah, no, I love do it for the story. To me that stuck out so much because there are so many limiting beliefs and you talk about this in your book, but there are so many limiting beliefs that stop us from moving forward and like accomplishing what we were meant to do and do it for the story. For some reason, that quote just resonated with me to just block off certain limiting beliefs that I'm like, oh no, now I'm gonna do it for the story. Thank you,

Claire Wasserman (18:34): Claire. A shout out, you know, I didn't come up with that phrase myself. I'm gonna have to give a shout out to, and I don't know if she came up with it, but I, you know, um, her name is Serena Carrigan. Okay. So if you go check her out on Instagram, she says that a lot. I mean, a quote I just always say is like, imagine, and you're, you're the main character in a movie, um, that in the minute I heard her say do for the story, I was like, oh, you just took my concept and you made it so much LL give her credit. I sure

Daphné Vanessa (19:10): There you go, win, win, win quotation within quotation, you know, for all the college students out there citation in like MLA. Right, right. Whatever . Um, but yeah, no love that. What I would love to get into next is how you paid off your student loans, that I am assuming that you paid off your student loans, by the way, just because successful, but you can tell us about your student loan payoff story if you don't mind.

Claire Wasserman (19:34): Sure, sure. I mean, it's been a while now. Um, I did pay it off. Um, I mean I started kind of like with my credit card, you know, cause I, I got in a lot of trouble. It was my credit card I had issues with. I didn't fully realize that it was not free money yeah. I didn't fully realize how much the interest was. I mean, it's the worst and I opened my credit card because they were on my campus. Yep. You know, I didn't have any education about it. And I also wasn't checking my bank account. Okay. It was like outta sight, out of mind, bad mistake. So student loans actually were less scary for me because the interest was better. Um, I just was doing minimum minimum payment, you know, when I could, and then I realized, wow, I will never pay this off.

Claire Wasserman (20:17): And I will constantly, it'll just pile up minimum payment is not good enough. Yeah. So that was another aha moment that I had. Um, you know, it's not, I didn't wanna tread water anymore. I really needed to swim. Yeah. It was just living very frugally. I have to say it was just, but I, I wanna talk a little bit about living frugally because something people don't realize is scarcity mindset. So if you go through time in your life where you are not spending money and you are afraid of spending money, which I was, and I'm talking like only eating cans of beans. Yeah. Know what I mean? Like if I got invited to an event, um, I would be the person by the cheese, you know, bread in my back, which is fine. Right. Yeah. 10 years later and only pretty recently. And I still struggle with it.

Claire Wasserman (21:00): I carried that scarcity mindset with me now, every time I go to the grocery store, you know, I look at the fresh fruit and I think I can't afford those berries. Yeah. I remember warning them so badly. Right. Those berries or when they're like doing the checkout. And I just like think back to like panic, how panicked I felt. Mm. So that's part of the reason why I got my master's certificate in behavioral finance and financial psychology. Because even if you pay off your loans and you do it well, and you feel proud can be residual trauma that you carry from having had those loans. So I do wanna make sure everybody, you know, it's not just the math, it's also, you know, checking in with yourself emotionally a along the way and, and sharing it with others. I'm glad now people are talking about it, but I graduated in oh nine and like, people were not talk, did Instagram even exist? I mean, people,

Speaker 5 (21:48): No I'm with you. I'm with you. Don't worry.

Claire Wasserman (21:51): No, there wasn't like an outrage about the loans. It was like, well, this is just what you have to do. Pretty much

Speaker 5 (21:57): Remember they had those tents, they had the tents set up. Uh, and then you, like you said, when you say you set up for the credit card, I was like, ah, I'm pretty sure I don't want you graduated. Cuz that's the same thing that happened to me.

Claire Wasserman (22:05): I think they still do it. It's predatory. I, you know, I'm not gonna call out the bank. I mean, listen, I, we all need banks by the way, everybody should be using a credit card. Um, because that's how you build credit. Um, and you also, depending on the rewards program, you know, I put everything on the credit card and then I immediately pay it off. Yep. So I know exactly what I have to spend, but I do it, you know, in a system that gives me point back. So I, I don't want anybody to take away from here. Like we should stay away from them. You just have to be educated about it. Right. Yeah. And I don't know how long it took me. I mean, at least five years for sure.

Daphné Vanessa (22:41): But that's not bad actually. That's pretty good, you know, timing for sure.

Claire Wasserman (22:45): Maybe it was more than five years and I'm have just,

Daphné Vanessa (22:49): And just go walk out the bad memories,

Claire Wasserman (22:53): You know, ,

Speaker 5 (22:55): What's in between, you know, ,

Daphné Vanessa (22:58): I love that. Um, so in your book you used stories of women and uh, they going through sort of where they are getting into their careers. I thought that was such a creep way to spell out the everyday struggles that, that women in careers go through. And I'd love to use one of the examples in your book, if you're okay with it about, um, a woman who was working at a consulting firm, she was putting her all in, she went on that trip and then realized that she wasn't being respected in the way that she needed to. And that helped her sort of go on the trajectory of finding what, what mattered. Can you, can you share a little bit

Claire Wasserman (23:42): About that? Yes, yes. Um, so just every, so everybody understands the book is really a chronology of a career in the sense of like, who am I and what do I want? And do I believe in myself through getting the job negotiating, doing well at the job, moving up and then making change kind of making, you know, helping other women well at the company. And also even beyond in, in your community. I knew the journey I wanted to take people on, but recognizing that you're not alone is such a huge piece of ladies get paid. Also it's just more compelling and interesting right. To, to hear about stories. So these women, each of them, um, are experiencing a different kind of professional challenge in that chronology of a career. And as I tell their story, I stop along the way and I gave advice, right.

Claire Wasserman (24:27): So it's very, you know, just as much as it's, you know, inspirational. I, I hope, and I think that it's educational, this woman, these are all real women, barely any details have been changed. Okay. And I'm gonna tell you who this woman is, cuz she's amazing. so, so she, yes. So she went to Harvard okay. When she joined, when she started to Harvard, she like wanted to be a journalist, but pretty quickly said, mm, I don't think I'm gonna make enough money. And back to the point of college campuses and other, you know, forces coming in trying to recruit you, it was consulting companies, they were recruiting everybody. And there were so much peer pressure and competition that she got sucked into. So she consulting company. And once she realizes there, yes. You know, she was struggling with being respected, but really the work life balance, it was like this isn't working for me, but here's the thing, everybody she knew was going through that.

Claire Wasserman (25:18): So she assumed, well, that's the way it has to be. That work is always going to be hard. Right. And she of eventually she said, I'm gonna quit and I'm gonna take classes because I've always, you know, wanted to move in a more creative direction. And she's doing online classes, you know, taking free things like trying to do graphic design, found a few clients, you know, doing small projects for them networking. And as she was building this portfolio for her herself, and by the way, she had savings, right. She was able to do it that way. Um, she realized the kind of environment and kind of company she wanted to be in. I think that's huge for everybody knowing what you wanna do. That's tough because roles are really changing. Even like the title of a role can be very different job to job. So I think a better way of moving her careers is to really look at the kinds of companies that are out there.

Claire Wasserman (26:11): And so she identified, I want a heck, I want a startup in media and she was able to get herself in the door. Oh my, my gosh. And long story short, she now has her own company, um, called girls night in, so shouted to her, her name's Alicia Ramos. She's very, very successful and it's a company to help women basically, you know, appreciate their downtime girls night in. Right. Um, so it's, it's, she's been all about the work life balance since she got burnt out. Um, and I, her journey amazing. I love her very much. And she's like, I think she's my first chapter, right? Yeah.

Daphné Vanessa (26:45): Yeah. She's like the first or second chapter. Yeah. Yeah. No love, love her story. Uh, could definitely resonate, but the, her going out there and, um, sort of experimenting there's lot of ways that you can experiment to find out what are you gonna be good at? What are you going to enjoy? Could you share with the audience, how volunteering might help you have that opportunity to like experiment with what's next?

Claire Wasserman (27:10): Oh my goodness. Three thing that I have done in my career, um, has come from being self motivated, whether it was a side hustle, volunteer, or internally being like an and saying, Hey, I see this thing, this opportunity, let me pitch myself. So never things that were given to me or were like, technically my job responsibly. So I'm a huge, you know, believer in, in that, um, not only will you get to experiment and enjoy yourself, but if you do want to leverage it to get a new job, you look so great. You look so self-motivated um, um, I'm also gonna be a little bit, um, anti ladies get paid for a minute because you should always be paid, but if you have never done something before or something that is stretching your capabilities, that we're giving you exposure in some way, then maybe you need to do it at on barter.

Claire Wasserman (28:00): Mm-hmm you have to be getting something out of it, right. It's even just like a letter brick or testimonial or something. Um, that's, that's the way to go, uh, you know, volunteering. I mean, whatever it is, it's gonna be for the people too, that you meet mm-hmm because then you're connecting with minded people. So even if you end up never wanting to, or making it work for you in your career, you're gonna connect with folks that will feel close to you because you have that in common. So if anything do this for, you know, to expand your circle, I

Daphné Vanessa (28:31): Love that. I love that. And, and the importance of community and your circle is, I mean, instrumental in anybody's career as you're going through these difficult decisions, how can people find community when they feel alone?

Claire Wasserman (28:47): So I'll, I'll tell you also a little story that piggybacks off of like the, the value of volunteering and, and side hustles, um, that will illustrate my point here. So there was a woman in the community who found out she was not getting paid as much as the guy that she replaced. She didn't know what to do. And a friend of hers had, I guess, found out about ladies, get paid and said, you should go, she should go. So anybody Google you're, you're gonna find, you know, or put it out on, on social media, right? Your friends, people who are very well networked that, Hey, I'm looking to move more into this direction. Do you know anybody? Or do you know any groups? Okay. So this is what happened. So she comes, she loved ladies, get paid and asked if she could help everything from, can I check people in at the door, which by the way is a very strategic thing to do because then everybody knows who you are. Yep. Yep. Literally get FaceTime. Okay. Yep. You know, you know, being, you know, asking for, you know, what do you need help with? What can I do? And, you know, and I finally said, okay, here's where I need help. And guess what? She is now a CEO of ladies get paid. OK. Volunteered herself in. Cause it the point where I was like, we should definitely be teaming up.

Claire Wasserman (29:58): She worked for me, then I made cofounder. And then I made her my CEO because I don't wanna do that. Yeah. I don't wanna do that. That's not my skillset. She's a business minded person and I'm a content person. That's great. You know, I'm a writer and a speaker. So, you know, that really goes to show, you can absolutely change your life. And the most, I think strategic thing, a way to do that is by connecting with the person who organizes the event or who's the host of the group. And, you know, even just tweeting right. Posting on social, there's a number of women who, you know, who are much younger, who I've, they've helped me and I've helped them. They promote it. Hey, this book is great and they post it, Hey, there's this event happening that will get you visibility. Mm-hmm . So don't just go to the group, promote the group, support the group. And it goes, people will notice both the organizer and other people in the community, ah, this person, this person's a mover shaker, right? Like she cares or he cares, but you know, meet up.com um, event break, go through the, you know, start there. But I, I say just put it out in the world and say, who are some, you know, favorite folks that, you know, have an expertise in this area or groups or podcasts. And, um, one will lead to another. For sure.

Daphné Vanessa (31:11): I love that. I love that you're not alone. Right? Like most experiences somebody else has gone through. And so you can find community in all of these different areas. And I love, love that you sort of gave people tactical steps of how to do it because sometimes you're stuck. Right. And you just don't know where to start.

Claire Wasserman (31:29): Yeah. And it's overwhelming too. Like when I say, oh, just Google it. Well, that's part of the problem. Like what exactly you're so here, um, I, I just really do love thinking about, you know, just putting it out in the ether of I'm looking for or this cause none of people are very specific about their ask or they're afraid if they ask it's a burden or they don't look smart. No, if you have a question, somebody else have the same one. So just put it out there.

Daphné Vanessa (31:56): Love that. Love that I'm monopolizing. This Shamil do you have

Speaker 5 (32:00): No, no, this is great. I'm, I'm, I'm loving it because I, I, I think something that I've seen and that I, Claire, I 100% agree. It's helped my career personally in a big way. Uh, and it's something that's helped us is really just getting out there and volunteering. I think that's such a big part of just like being in this space, like just get around other people that are successful that are where you want to be. And I think you up, I think you hinted at it and I would love to see if you can dive a little deeper, the idea of asking, like, what is their date like? Right. What would, if we wanted to mimic that conversation, right. I think it's so helpful because sometimes you can glamorize what a certain field might be like until you actually find out what

Claire Wasserman (32:40): It's like. Right. Oh, absolutely. I, I don't start with the good stuff. Start with, what's difficult. What are the challenges that you solve at your company? So if you're a person who you've never done this before, like maybe you're pretty junior in your career or you're changing industries and you're worried, right? Like how are they gonna take a chance on me if you've already had conversations before with somebody who's had that role. And they've told you, here are the things that are difficult about my job here are the challenges that I face. And you're able to speak to that. That's gonna show that you're ready. So it'll also help you understand if this is the direction you wanna go in. But I, I do think everybody should be asking those tough questions. Um, as a way of demonst, straight to the interviewer that you actually are ready for this, what, you know, what time do you wake up in the morning? What does worklife balance look like for you? Um, you know, what has been, um, you know, again, some things are specific to the company, right? Or your manager mm-hmm , but just understanding just throughout their career, what advice do you, you know, what do you wish you'd known when you first start? Um, you know, just, just tell me all the things that you don't like about your job to give your heads up. I mean, that's pretty funny when you put it that way. yeah,

Speaker 5 (33:49): No, that's true.

Claire Wasserman (33:50): Yeah. Cause that's what it's gonna come down to is the tough stuff. Unfortunately it

Daphné Vanessa (33:54): Does absolutely. For every job. I wish I knew the tough stuff first instead of the

Claire Wasserman (34:00): Z, you know, and it's also knowing like maybe you thrive under pressure, right? Maybe you like to do sprints, you know, like I know people, I mean, I actually used to be one of them who work, work, work, work, and then take big break. Right. That's my style. So like there doesn't need to be alignment here in how you function and how you thrive. Um, and that could be, you know, it's gonna look different for different people, so you should know walking in. Yep.

Daphné Vanessa (34:23): Absolutely. I have one question on advancement, but Shaila, I think you had something

Speaker 5 (34:29): First. Okay. Yeah. I just wanted to close up, uh, that idea was the, uh, managing, so some great advice that I'd received and I think it's, you're right on, there is you have to manage the people that mentor you. Right. Oftentimes a lot of people would just like, Hey, can you mentor me? And then they kind of like, don't want to like be pushy or like be on somebody, you know, being on somebody's nerves. What, what do you think about that from your perspective of, of like managing your mentors?

Claire Wasserman (34:55): I, so I have a number of mentors, but I don't think they know that they're my mentors. No. Wow. You don't have to, you don't need to make this formal, you know, you don't a down unended knee like that. You know, I feel a lot, you know, as a person who might be receiving that, like, oh, there's a big time commitment. Um, these are people who, um, you know, personal board of advisors, right? Each of them has contributed to my life in different ways. The key is to stay in touch and to do it in just light ways. Read this article, thought, you'd find it interesting. Hey, I think you'd be a great speaker for this conference. Can I go and suggest to you, you know, can I nominate you right. Anything that shows them that you're thinking of them and you remain visible to them and then you do PS and you give them an update.

Claire Wasserman (35:38): And this is something I have an issue have had an issue with. I've always been hesitant to share an update unless I have a great one. Right. Mm-hmm so if there's nothing fantastic, that's happened in my life or I haven't done anything that I think is impressive. I don't give the up, but then you'll never talk to them. right. If we're gonna wait that long and, and again, consist and see top of mind, that is key. So honestly just say, Hey, you know, I've been thinking about you, you know, that one piece of advice you gave me has been like helpful. And it, it doesn't again, need to be so Compli oriented, um, or had, you know, a little bit of a breakthrough work. And I, you know, was able to have a good conversation with my manager. Um, and I was proud of that, whatever, just, it can be small, just do it. Mm that's huge. Um, and uh, always asking how you can support them. You know, that this is a two way street and, uh, it's been wonderful as my career has evolved where people who'd helped me, I'm now helping them. So it's really, and I now give them opportunities that's big so that it feels so nice. A, you know, it all comes around and the world is small. So also always be, you know, never burn bridges and be upstanding pretty much,

Daphné Vanessa (36:45): Pretty much. Thank you. I, I love this, that I feel like is, is a worksheet. Like what you just said is literally a worksheet on how people should approach mentoring and relationships. And I love that it came full circle for you. How did you feel when that was happening? That's amazing.

Claire Wasserman (37:04): Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple people in particular. Who've like over the course of my career in various ways. Yeah. Um, have popped up and some have become, you know, like they're real. They're my peers now. They're my friends. I am, I'm really proud of myself. Uh, I mean, there's still a lot of work that I need to do. I'm actually not the best at maintaining relationships at all. I'm, you know, probably better at giving advice than anything than actually taking it. Um, it just goes to show also that you always need to be kind to people because you're gonna meet up with them at some, like just also what you need to reach out to people. Because again, even if they didn't respond to you this time, they see your email, they see your name and 5, 10, 15 years later, guess who might be working at your company.

Claire Wasserman (37:49): Right. So just always be a good person. I just can't, I can't stress that enough because I, I really many, many years later, these people are, we're all still around and in, and in wildly small world type ways where you, you know, I got into this is like a whole other story, but I just got invited to a dinner party from somebody who I knew many, many years ago, who had been the director of marketing at shutter stock. She was way up here. I was way down here. Now she wants to connect as friends. And she's inviting somebody whose father introduced my brother to his wife, what . And I was like this, and I'm on the E west coast. They're on the east coast. Like, you're like, okay, you always be a good person. Always be a good person. Cause you're gonna end up at a dinner party seat next to them. I guarantee you . Wow. Yeah. Very weird. She was kinda a mentor. Like she was, she was the big deal and I was the nobody. Yeah. And now, you know, we're, we're, we're friends

Daphné Vanessa (38:48): Crazy. That's cool. I love that. That's be kind of people on your way up because you may eat them again on your way down. so yeah, I love, I love that. That resonates with a lot of people, right. Especially as you're planning your career earlier, it's really important to think about advancement. Think about what it's going to be like when you are leading, because you're not gonna stay where you are forever. Right. That's the whole circle of the life. And so I love making sure that you prioritize and respect relationships with everybody by being a good person, like

Claire Wasserman (39:24): You said, and, and, and something else is if you were the more junior person I oftentimes we can feel like, well, what value do I bring? Yeah. Um, I know so many people, self included, but who have hired, like somebody that used to work for them at one job than the more senior person they went and left, they brought them with them. Yeah. I know. Multiple times they brought them with them. People who, you know, started out with just sharing my tweets, right? Like, okay, now I'm gonna, you know, hire you to do this one thing. Now I'm gonna hire you to do something even more or over time. That is valuable. As somebody who has been in the position of bringing others who are more junior with me, we are very grateful to be able to work with people at all levels. So it is helpful for us to connect with more junior folks. So don't assume, you know, you're not bringing anything to the table. Also junior folks. I mean, you're hungry. You're G like that, that feels good to have around. It feels good for me to be able to give. So I hope people, you know, don't be so worried about I'm I'm burdening them by even just asking a question like we, we do wanna hear from you cause you hope enough too. They

Daphné Vanessa (40:32): Really are. Yes. We love, we love young people. I can. Yeah.

Claire Wasserman (40:39): Now I sounds so old. I'm yeah, no,

Daphné Vanessa (40:41): Come on. I, I don't know what year you guys graduated, but I'm I'm young. Oh man.

Claire Wasserman (40:47): I'm oh, nine anybody's nine here. Oh, 9, 9, 9. Oh. I like, oh my God. I'm 30. My friends have two children. All of the math, two kids. I have a ball. Right. That's pretty

Daphné Vanessa (41:00): Good. I love, okay. Let's talk about that, especially. No, this is a really important thing. Women are often socialized into thinking that they need to value relationships, family, kids. Since I was very young, I disagreed with this topic to to my, you know, family's displeasure. But I always just was confused when people would say congratulations for like getting married or having kids, instead of saying congratulations for like an actual accomplishment Uhhuh . Can you talk about that mentality in women and why we're still at that place where they value somebody else prioritizing them? Do you know what I mean?

Claire Wasserman (41:45): Yeah. It's complica this has just been years and years and years of things that are explicit and things that are just, you know, implicit. I, I guess, I mean, starting from 1974 was when women could get a credit card without a man. OK. Crazy. Let's

Daphné Vanessa (41:59): Just, let's like the other day. Yeah, you weren't alive, but it's still the other

Claire Wasserman (42:04): Day. Maybe it was better then. Cause that would've prevented me from getting into so much debt so, so there you go. I mean, my mother was the second class of women in her college. Okay. So that, to your point, like it's yesterday, it's also a long time ago. Right? So there's, you know, we gotta be patient. Well, we're also impatient. Um, it's how the media portrays us. It's, you know, we're socialized to be accommodating anyway. So accommodating means putting others before ourselves and that can and manifest itself in a number of ways. Um, just, you know, be the person that you wanna see. So, you know, even things like not just saying, you know, especially like little girls, like, oh, you look so pretty, you know it's wow. You look like, you look so confident or you're so bra or you're such a, you were such a good friend, like rethinking, we praise starting then I don't mean to say we're too far gone, but you know, damage has been done Daphne, you know this. So

Daphné Vanessa (43:02): It has actually,

Claire Wasserman (43:04): Um, people, young people.

Daphné Vanessa (43:06): Yes, yes. Which we are a part of guys. We're not,

Speaker 5 (43:10): I was like, I was like, you guys speak for yourselves, I'm over here filming. Great.

Daphné Vanessa (43:15): My back hurts, but I won't say anything,

Claire Wasserman (43:18): But I think, I mean, listen, if we're all being kind to each other, you know, it is a congratulations. Mm-hmm , you know, it is a, it is a congratulations. Here's the thing. Okay. So I'm getting married in January and yes, congratulations to me, you know, also congratulations on my divorce for my last marriage.

Claire Wasserman (43:35): Congratulations as well. And there was that first marriage. Right. So it's like, you know, also just take the joy with it. But, um, but I do think, um, praising one another, not for accomplishments, um, milestones, but just for you made it through COVID or like your coping or, Hey, you found about, you've been like, you know, uh, you've been doing your Peloton three days, but like things that actually like serve people's, you know, bodies, minds, and souls, um, shifting, you know, if we can try to shift the, the focus there, um, away from just you got this new job or this, you know, again, these are things to celebrate, but then what happens when we don't have them? That's that's the flip side. Yeah. They,

Speaker 5 (44:16): The only things to

Claire Wasserman (44:16): Celebrate. Correct. Exactly. But I will still take the congratulations obviously.

Daphné Vanessa (44:21): Absolutely. Congratulations. so that is big. And I appreciate the call on not judging because you're right. That, you know, for somebody else that is a milestone for them and it's important for them. And so we should be congratulating each other on what is important to us, but how do you know that for people? You just, you generally don't right.

Claire Wasserman (44:46): I always say, how do you feel? Mm. You know, like they tell me there's this thing that's happening or they're doing. And, and I, I really, before I jump in with any kind of judgment, which is usually a, oh, wow, that's so great. Or, but I'm like, that's still a judgment. And how do you feel about it? And I love asking for things that might seem really happy or great. Like, how are you feeling like you, like, they gave you an all I'm like, how are you amazing? Like, how are you feeling about, you know, just like, don't just ask that when somebody seems down, like, how are you feeling? Like ask it about a lot of things open ended, make sure that we're prompting each other with things that allow the other person to express themselves in any and all ways. Um, as opposed to like very, you know, like focus questions that will get a yes or no, or give you answer that you already kind of set it up to be given.

Claire Wasserman (45:36): I like the, and how, how did you, how do you feel about that? That's a good way. That's a good way to start. And you know what, who I took that from my therapist. Oh really? Oh, I mean, that's just like, you know, she she's credited in the book cause I, you know, a lot of the things I learned have come from therapy, which is why kind of the joke of all this is yeah. Read the book, join ladies, get paid, but also find a coach. You know, when you're doing your money, you know, that's also a question of your career and your values and you feel about your values and those choices. So this is, this is a holistic conversation for sure. Absolut

Daphné Vanessa (46:13): Love that. How do you feel about it will be my new favorite question. Cause now I know how to start the open ended because you're right. Congratulations in itself, directly after somebody says something is a form of a judgment. So even though it's on the other side, that was very eye opening for me. Let's talk about advancement. I know we don't have a lot of time left, but for the people who are earlier on in their career, as they start to realize that minimum payments are not enough on their student loans. And they also start to realize that they've been providing a lot more value than they're getting paid. What do they need to start doing to set themselves up or an increase?

Claire Wasserman (46:55): Sure. So backing up just a little bit, everybody makes sure that you fully understand what your manager expects of you because they are the person who either is gonna be deciding your compensation, or they're gonna go to bat for you or not to somebody higher than them. Cause they have to answer to somebody. The success of their team is reliant on your success. So you also wanna make sure all year they are aware of what you're doing. And that also part of that conversation is how do you define and measure success, right? You have to know that from them to know what you're doing and, and how to talk about it. It's tracking it, writing down. You know, when you do something, if somebody gives you great feedback, you write that down. You look at your old job description, you know, when you were first hired and maybe write a new one based on what you actually did, compare those two descriptions.

Claire Wasserman (47:44): It's the scope change because your job probably really evolve. So that is gonna be kind of the way that you start crafting your case. I also want you to think about what it is you actually wanna do next, um, so that you are setting yourself up well for that, because it's not just about the money, it's about the opportunities, right? The projects that you're on, the people maybe you get to shadow, right? Could you have consistent meetings with the person in, you know, the next level or in the department, you know, sort of make them into your mentor because when you have the conversation about compensation, you're also gonna be talking about things that bring you value in general, it's called full compensation. So to know what you want means all year, you have to be sort of collecting and for, and reflecting on it and checking in with yourself.

Claire Wasserman (48:33): Then you also wanna do a lot of market research of companies similar to yours. So even just emailing cold and emailing on LinkedIn, finding a guy, a white man, okay. Cause the wage gap, they get paid the most, find them and ask them if they would be willing to give you some feed the back and you're gonna present to them. Here's the research I did. Am I off base compared to what you make? Of course they would feel comfortable sharing with you. That would be great too. But you know, that's not how you start the conversation. It's just getting your, you know, a I off track here. Right. And if they have tips on how to negotiate. So once you collect enough of information, you understand where you are in the mark get and your company is competing with those companies for talent. Yep. That's how a lot of women are able to move forward or up in their careers.

Claire Wasserman (49:18): Unfortunately it means they have to leave their company because they get the increase at the next company. So that's where you wanna collect the data from, but make sure it has to be very similar to your company, size location, obviously industry. So it's really more, you know, make sure it's apples to apples there, but understanding from your manager, expectations, being consistent in, you know, delivering and articulating, knowing what's next for you beyond money and doing that real person market research, not just the glass door, uh, that is that's fantastic. Glass piece is, you know, no, have a couple of as, because if you get a no to me, that's just a, not yet. Or that's just one part of the conversation. You need to have one or two extra asks because you have to get something. Otherwise you know that this is, you know, we're gonna start looking for work and that's, that's okay, too. Uh,

Daphné Vanessa (50:06): Amazing. Well Shamil do you have anything else?

Speaker 5 (50:12): So Claire, how can people connect with you? Where can they find your book? Like, tell us more about that, cuz I'm sure people are gonna

Claire Wasserman (50:18): Want to learn more. Yay. So easy ladies get paid.com. You will find all of our events are 100 plus hours of video. You can join our private network. It is free. There's also a paid version and you'll see all the benefits there. Also ladies get paid.com/book. There's the book. You can buy it from pretty much any bookstore, um, which is thank you to all the bookstores, um, and social media. So you can follow ladies, get paid. That's our handle. You can also follow me. Claire paid. I wanna hear from you. I actually do respond if people wanna message me and um, but yeah, ladies get paid. If you Google it, we should come

Speaker 5 (50:53): Up. Absolutely. Absolutely. Claire, thank you so much for joining us for more information on today's episode, visit the P loan podcast.com/episode 59. That's the student loan podcast.com/episode 59. Okay.