Rob Phelan (00:00): The scary stat that pops up is that most of our money habits are formed by age nine. So whatever your attitudes, beliefs, values, and habits around money are you probably formed most of those by age seven and the rest by age nine. And you'd probably been in an uphill battle to break those habits or change them since then, if they weren't the habits that you particularly wanted. And I'm guessing if you're listening to a student loan podcast about getting out of debt, we may not have had the exact right habits that we wanted at that age.

Shamil Rodriguez (00:30): Welcome to the student loan podcast. Here, you'll find practical advice on tackling student loan debt, paying down your higher education expenses and

Daphné Vanessa (00:40): Hiring stories about paying off student loans, where your hosts

Daphné Vanessa and Shamil Rodriguez (00:44): Daphne Vanessa and Shamil Rodriguez.

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Shamil Rodriguez (01:19): Welcome back to another episode of the student loan podcast. Everyone. Today, we have a very interesting guest who is an author and a high school teacher. So I think we actually have a theme coming on here. We had a previous, our only other previous author was also a high school teacher as well. So kudos to you guys for doing great work and teaching. Uh, but we're, we have Rob Phelan on today who is actually an author of an existing book called the simple startup. And then he's actually creating another book that's launching next month. Uh, that's actually for children, uh, which is called M is for money. So I can't wait to actually get into that because it really dives into the relationship that we build as kids that really impact what we do. Long-term uh, in addition to that, he's actually also a part of the team of choose FII which is financial independence, and they actually provide financial literacy training courses, materials to people and underserved communities. So I really, really Rob applaud you for that. And I can't wait to get into this episode. Uh, your work is really instrumental and it totally lines up what we're trying to accomplish here on the student loan podcast. So without further ado, Rob, let's turn it over to you.

Rob Phelan (02:25): Oh wow. Thank you so much, Shamil Daphné. That was a wonderful introduction. And, uh, I don't know what the link is with teachers and books. Uh, I can't imagine that we've got so much time on our hands that we need something to do. There's something there. I'm sure. Um, so yeah. Uh, hi everyone. My name is Rob and I'm a high school math and personal finance teacher in Maryland. Um, I am super into personal finance and that has led me down a lot of different paths in terms of entrepreneurship and finding ways to help other people do well with their money. So I'm just really excited to be here today and to maybe answer some questions, shed some light on some topics. Um, yeah. What direction do you guys want to go first? Yeah, so let's, let's go. Oh, go ahead. Definitely.

Daphné Vanessa (03:05): I think we were going to ask the same question, which is please tell us about your story. How did you get to be where you are today and achieve the amount of success you have in terms of financial independence, to be able to teach that to others?

Rob Phelan (03:18): Okay. So, um, long story short, I guess we don't need to go all the way back to early childhood, but, uh, it didn't have much of an upbringing when it came to money. Um, I think some of the best lessons I had came from my parents being like, oh, you want something? That's fine. We're not going to buy it for you, but if you save and earn your own money, you can go and buy it then. Um, so from a very early age, I was encouraged to go find your own money if you really want something. And it did, I guess, develop some sort of entrepreneurial spirit in me. Um, I did get very good at spending my parents' money wherever possible and not my own. Um, so I think that is a real talent where like you learn to spend other people's money and keep your own prove yourself.

Rob Phelan (03:58): Um, I had a savings account from a very young age. Uh, I don't know if I grew up part of my life in Ireland, part of my life here in the U S so I don't know if they quite do it here, but in Ireland, the post office, um, offered minor bank accounts and they, they partnered with elementary schools. So like my elementary school had a branch of the post office bank in school and two of the like sixth grade students would get to run it each semester, which was a big privilege, you know, when you're in that grade. Um, so you would take your money in, you would, they would take the deposit, they would, you know, mark up a little like passport book that you had added, or you can even withdraw money as well. Um, and yeah, so I was learning from a very young age to actually start saving my money and actually do credit my elementary school for doing something like that.

Rob Phelan (04:42): That was a really kind of cool thing to see. I don't see much of that here in the U S um, but yeah, so from there, um, I went into secondary school. I had a really great experience in my 10th grade year. Um, we have this very unique thing in Ireland called transition year, where when you get to the equivalent of 10th grade, you get an optional year. So as a ninth grade student finishing ninth grade, you get to decide, you know what I want to get out of high school earlier. I want to get up faster. So I'm going to skip 10th grade and go straight into 11, or you can say, I'm going to stay that extra year. I'm going to work on some personal development stuff, and there's no grades or big tests that year. And you really get to explore a lot of new areas and things.

Rob Phelan (05:23): And one thing that I really got to explore there, which I think was one of the biggest experiences I had in high school was my business teacher did a mini company experience with us. So we got to, we get encouraged to basically like, go explore your interests, start a business, actually run it, make some money. And then we entered a national entrepreneurship competition, which again, just a very fortunate experience that my schooling actually provided me. And from there, I kind of, I forgot about entrepreneurship for awhile. I went to undergrad studies to be a teacher. So I'm a math and physics ed teacher. Um, I moved to the U S age 22 because I couldn't get a job as a teacher in Ireland at the time there's still a hiring freeze and the public sector after oh 8 0 9. And I worked full-time as a saw her coach getting totally taken advantage of in terms of, um, the labor and stuff that we were doing.

Rob Phelan (06:12): So I realized very quickly, I hate working for minimum wage, and this was actually less than minimum wage. So I found a grad assistant position got my master's degree, which was a great hack in itself, by the way, just if you need, if you want to avoid student loans, find a graduate assistant position if possible, and get college paid for, and then made my way down to Maryland, where I'd met my future wife at the time. And I'm settled into here that gets us kind of closer present day and the whole personal finance thing didn't really start until then. Um, my wife was the money person in our relationship. She was handling all the finances. She was the one who had a 401k and an IRA, which I knew nothing about. Um, she was doing like estimated taxes for our business and like, what's that?

Rob Phelan (06:59): Um, and she said to me, like, I don't like this imbalance in our relationship. I don't like being the person solely responsible for the finances in our household. And she said, I want you to go and learn more about this stuff so we can make decisions together. And, um, at the same time, my school asked me if I was interested in teaching this personal finance slash math class. And I took both of them as a sign that should probably do that. And I said yes to both and dove head first into the personal finance world. Um, learning about, you know, budgets and manage expenses and baby steps through Dave Ramsey. Um, I ran my own financial peace university course, just so I could do the course for free. Um, so, you know, did you know that if you run the course, I don't have to pay for it. That's a good lifestyle,

Daphné Vanessa (07:41): Ladies and gentlemen, you just learned the lesson of today. That is awesome. I didn't even know financial peace did that. Um, so where we're huge fans of Dave Ramsey

Rob Phelan (07:51): As well. Yeah. So financial piece, um, you know, typically run in churches or religious organizations, but I ran mine through my public high school, so invited members of the community to come in and do that. So I stayed after school and did it with members of the community. And I pretended like I knew what I was doing, but really I was just pressing play and listening, listening to the lessons myself, which was great. And then from there I kind of graduated more into the financial independence community. So, um, I got control, we got control of our finances. We got out of, um, commercial debt very quickly. So student loans, car loans paid off, and then we wanted more than just the investments give like you're a wealthy person. So the financial dependence community provided that. And, um, podcasts like choose a five Ford, anything stacking Benjamins, billionaires, unveiled, like they were all really inspirational podcasts for, um, my wife and I kind of learned more about this whole financial independence idea and getting to that point where you don't actually need a job anymore because you don't depend on that job.

Rob Phelan (08:48): So you're not financially dependent on a job. You are at this point where you can choose to work. If you want to, you can walk away. If you want, you can go follow your life's passions, whatever it is. And that's something that's really exciting to me. And, um, yeah, that kind of brings us to present day. I've been teaching personal finance for five years now, been on this financial dependence journey for about the same amount of time. And, um, yeah, my wife and I are really progressing toward that goal. We're not there yet, so we're not millionaires yet by any stretch, but we were certainly on that path. And at our current rate, you know, we would hit traditional retirement age with probably multiple millions. Um, but we want to get there faster.

Daphné Vanessa (09:23): Of course, of course love that. So inspiring at seems like we listened to a lot of the same podcast, which is fantastic. I would, since this is the student loan podcast, we really focus here on baby steps. One and two, we do delve into the other ones a little bit more, but sort of our audience is really in the phase of trying to get rid of student loan debt. A lot of people write or go to school for free, right? Finding creative ways to go to school for free. Talk to us about how you overcame commercial debt and the strategies that you and your wife used to achieve that success.

Rob Phelan (10:00): So I guess first off hats off to my parents, um, in their twenties, they moved to the U S so all of their children were born here. Um, which means that me and my siblings all have dual citizenship in the U S and Arland, so by debt, but technically by extension the European union. Um, so that gives us a lot of free movement, but the additional benefit was when we moved back to Ireland, we went to college there and college was paid for by the government. It was free. Um, so hack number one, don't put a college in the U S

Daphné Vanessa (10:30): We actually have an episode about having people go to college in Canada for exactly the same.

Rob Phelan (10:37): So if you are in the position to take advantage of geo arbitrage, like where you can relocate yourself for a lower cost of living or to take advantage of something like cheaper college, it's something that could be on the table. I know for many of your listeners, that's probably already that should have sailed, but Hey, if you're thinking about grad school, that could also be an option to consider. Um, so second up, you know, I manage my college expenses by working part-time through it, which a lot of people can do. So the government paid for college, but we still had to pay for kind of like room and board and stuff like that. So that was kind of cashflow that way. Um, my parents were of course, in the position to help me out as well, which was great. And then grad school, I already mentioned this, but I did a graduate assistant position to pay for my master's degree.

Rob Phelan (11:19): And I don't know how familiar your audience is with that. So just in case, I'm going to just kind of explain what that is. Um, a graduate assistant position is where the college hires you for a very particular job within the college. And then they offered to pay for part of your education for free typically a master's program. But I think I have heard of some graduate CISM PhDs as well. So, um, I got two years of a master's degree paid for, and in exchange I had to coach or help coach the women's soccer program, which didn't really feel like much of a job anyway. So it was a wonderful arrangement. Yes, I loved it. Um, and then commercial D I mean, I took on $10,000 in student loans then on the advice that you should really get some student loans, because I had no debt at that point, um, having moved from Ireland.

Rob Phelan (12:05): So as far as like the credit bureaus were considered, like, I was just a, a ghost, like I had no credit history and I was in my early twenties. Um, so the advice I got was get a credit card and get some student loans that you can start getting two different lines of credit under your belt, start building your credit score. And I did, I took $10,000 of student loans out, which was not a lot. And I frankly probably didn't need it. I think I finished grad school. It's still like 4,000 of it leftover. Um, I didn't give it back though. I just went and spent it. But, um, yeah, so that was, that was my introduction into debt and college debt, student loan debt in particular. And then when we got on our financial journey, we, we did the baby steps. We did the pay down the lowest at first.

Rob Phelan (12:50): So we did the snowball method versus the avalanche. So we went for the psychological wins versus the mathematically correct one. And it worked really well for us. You know, we had the, a chart up on the fridge that like, we got to fill in every time we made a payment. And so, yeah, it's something that, you know, works really well with kids too, is if you're trying to encourage them to save or any goal, really have a visual representation of it. Cause it gets really tiring paying down like multiple thousand dollar debts. If you're only chipping away a couple of hundred each time, if you get to at least like highlight a little bit of a bar or something, some just to, just to give yourself something to do and then pay

Shamil Rodriguez (13:23): That little psychological window,

Rob Phelan (13:26): It's kind of creating your own snowball method. And sometimes like, um, on some of the bigger ones, like the student loan, we put milestone markers along it. So when we hit those, we like treat ourselves out to a meal or something like that. Um,

Shamil Rodriguez (13:37): That's a good idea.

Rob Phelan (13:39): Yeah. Just, just, yeah. Break it up into smaller chunks, smaller chunks, easier goals to hit, and then you kind of stick with it when those bigger debts come up and you're kind of slogging away getting those out. Uh, I don't know if I actually answered your question at all.

Daphné Vanessa (13:52): And I think in, you know, a piece of advice that we haven't heard on the podcast yet is that, that psychological sort of the visual triggers to get people to accomplish the goal. We've spoken a lot about the tactical elements, but that I know it was a small example that, that you gave in passing, but really, I think it's huge. Right. And I think, you know, maybe with my two year old, let's start implementing that right. For no really, um, for, for sort of learning personal finance at a young age. So, um, she, well, I don't know if you have another question before jumping into the child piece, but I want to do,

Shamil Rodriguez (14:28): Can I know you were right into it. I was going to actually go into the, uh, Mr. Money, but I did want to mention, and I was just happy. You, you, you brought some back to the memories here. Cause I recall those, um, savings books. Like we used to have a small local bank, like down the street from my house. And uh, I used to be so proud and it's talking about like the psychological wins there of like you put $10, like my birthday come or whatever. And we take the money and you know, like the big thing at that time, the, the lessons that I would receive was like, all right, you got 10. So we're going to put five in here and then you can have five for however you want to spend it. You can save it. Or you can like put it towards this thing that you want to do. So that was like, I just had to like put that out there. It was such a great time to learn that lesson, especially with that little stamp book and all that stuff. So thanks for sh I feel like we're gonna get some really good practical tips here. Rob, I'm really happy,

Rob Phelan (15:17): I think is the tangible thing that you can see touch and feel that kids really need because, um, you know, going back to student loans, if you're telling your two year old that they have to put half of their birthday money into their college savings account, um, very quickly you are going to lose your two year old because that is like nine lifetimes away for them. And they can't see it. They can't feel it. Mommy and daddy are confiscating their money and it's not going to work very well. Um, so having a visual representations of where that money is, what it's doing, um, particularly in this digital world we live in is so important when it comes to talking to kids about money. And frankly, as adults too, we kind of actually still dig the visual representations of what we're doing,

Daphné Vanessa (16:00): Love that. So let's get into, we are, you know, big babies, all of us, we're adults, right? We're all big babies. I think of my colleagues and coworkers to have compassion for other people. I always say you're a toddler. You're just a toddler that grew up.

Rob Phelan (16:20): I got taller,

Daphné Vanessa (16:23): Eats more. So talk to us about the wonderful psychological element that you've been able to do research on to the point of being able to create these tools, to teach personal finance to children, right? Not only through your class, but also with, with your books. Talk about that.

Rob Phelan (16:44): So, um, some of the really kind of interesting stuff that pops up in the research is that kids, as young, as three years old, are able to understand basic financial concepts. And frankly, you've mentioned your two year old, I feel like my two year old kind of gets it a little bit to like the idea that you have to pay before you can leave the store. If you want to bring something out of the store, um, he gets the idea that, you know, the credit card is our payment method and he wants to be able to use that. Um, at any point he can, he loves taking like swiping around the house. Um, he loves going to the grocery store with me and like pulling stuff off the shelf and then taking the cashier afterwards. So there's definitely some basic stuff in there and he gets some of it. But by age three, your kids can start understanding basic money concepts. And they're going to learn not from like formal sit-down lessons, but from things like TV shows, books, music, and just role playing at home. So definitely all of those things are great places to just start working with your kids. If you do have any or younger siblings or nieces, nephews, that sort of thing. The scary stat that pops up is that most of our money habits are formed by age nine. I

Daphné Vanessa (17:47): Believe that, yeah, I totally believe that.

Rob Phelan (17:50): So whatever your attitudes, beliefs, values and habits around money are you probably formed most of those by age seven and the rest by age nine. And you'd probably been in an uphill battle to break those habits or change them since then, if they weren't the habits that you particularly wanted. And I'm guessing if we're listening to a student loan podcast about getting out of debt, we may not have had the exact right habits that we wanted at that age. So it was, it was an early development thing that a lot of people didn't realize was happening. And as hopefully parents are soon to be parents or people who are going to work with children in the future. Um, I hope that you do look at this younger generation as like an opportunity to help them learn a little bit more about money and things like patients, delay, gratification, building systems, um, trying to do intrinsic rewards versus intrinsic or extrinsic and sorry. And all of those things that are going to help you kind of become better money managers in the future.

Daphné Vanessa (18:42): Can we speak a little bit about the reward system? And I'm asking this question selfishly as the parent of a toddler, so apologies, but right now we have a little reward system where when you do certain things, you get $1, $5. She also has like an allowance that just goes towards investments. But like if she potties in the adult potty that I don't have to clean up, she gets more money. If she potties in the baby potty that I have to clean up, then it's less than money. And this is two and carrot, um, potty on the big potty, which is less work for mommy.

Rob Phelan (19:27): Did you all know you were expecting this conversation when you tuned in today? So all the, all the parents is still tuned in on this one.

Daphné Vanessa (19:36): We actually have a lot of parents emailing us. So I hope that they can empathize with this phase of life. Um, but is this reward system and extrinsic or intrinsic reward system, and is it going to be effective long-term or should we change immediately?

Rob Phelan (19:57): Um, so it's an extrinsic reward system in the sense that, um, you're providing a reward for the behavior, as opposed to like them being just internally satisfied about it. Now, if you're like, you know, doing extra claps and dances and probably singing fun songs like that could also bring up a sense of intrinsic reward as well. Um, my son's pretty happy with stickers so far. I haven't had to go into dollars yet, which is wonderful, but yeah, th that idea that kids love, um, I love praise. They love receiving rewards. They like when, you know, there's positive pinpointing of behavior, and those are all great parenting tactics. And, um, a lot of the things we do for kids actually still work for adults, which is the really fun part. So yeah, w you know, if you're familiar with like, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, like that's one motivator, one method of motivating employees, like, so the physical stuff is basically where most of your kids are out.

Rob Phelan (20:48): They just want small things, and that just makes them feel great. They're not looking for much else beyond that. Um, and adults, same thing. Like we like, um, to be recognized for what we do. We sometimes need a physical, tangible reward. Sometimes we just need positive words of encouragement. Sometimes we just need better working conditions. Your kids are the same thing. So whether you're damaging your kids anyway, probably not at all. Um, well, we certainly want housing that you certainly want them to eventually get to a point where they want to do some of those things for themselves and not because there's an external reward attached. Um, but we also want to instill the idea of earning. And the only way you earn is by doing something and getting paid for that, um, task or challenge or whatever it is you accomplish. So it's, yeah, you're definitely on the right track there. And that can very quickly build from potty training, into doing special chores around the house for, into an entrepreneurship venture or something like that. For sure. Love it. We will be purchasing your book.

Shamil Rodriguez (21:46): No, no, no, the pre-order yeah, the, uh, coming out in November for sure. But before then, I wanted to make sure that we like translate that directly to, uh, you know, student loan payments, uh, because, um, like you said, like with, you just reminded me of the Pomodoro method, right? Where you're, you're, you're doing something for an extended period of time and you take a break, you reward yourself and you come back to it. So I guess, uh, Rob, what would you say are some, uh, adult I'm putting air quotes for those of you listening, but like, uh, equivalents of extrinsic, external right. Rewards versus interesting, interesting internal rewards so that our listeners are really, you know, maybe where they can apply to themselves, because if you're looking at 30, 40, $50,000, just for your undergraduate degree and through the loan debt, but then you go and get your master's or your PhD or your JD or MD. And now you're looking at a mortgage equivalent of student loans, I guess, what are some of those, uh, adult-like, uh, rewards that somebody could kind of set up for themselves?

Rob Phelan (22:44): That's a really great question. Um, it comes down to knowing yourself first and foremost, like what actually motivates you. Um, for me, I just liked seeing the numbers come down. Um, you know, and it's the same thing when it comes to investing. I actually don't have my investments on auto deposit. I really enjoy every month. I actually like going into my Vanguard account and putting the $300 in and like seeing the balance go up. Um, so like, that's just something for me. Like I know that seeing the balance come down, it'll be enough for me in a lot of cases. And even just making the payments manually, something I really enjoy doing, but I'm guessing that's not everybody. So if that's not you, um, think of it, like, have you guys ever seen like the video game, um, the psychology behind video games and how they keep kids addicted to them?

Shamil Rodriguez (23:30): Tell us though.

Rob Phelan (23:31): That's all I know. So, um, I guess it's game theory or whatever you want to call it, but, um, the snowball method kind of runs off the same thing that if you provide a reward very early on, our interest is peaked. We kind of come back for more. We like this feeling, we get that little dopamine hit from it. The next reward should be just a little bit further away. And the next one's a little bit further away, again, a little bit further away again, and they get more spread out, which basically spells out the snowball method. When you're doing your own internal reward system, it should kind of be the same thing. You have quick, easy to hit goals and you start spacing them out a little bit further. And if you're breaking up a big debt, break it up into little mini goals like that and have that first reward be something small, but you know enough to kind of like, be like, oh, I like this.

Rob Phelan (24:11): Let's come back for more. The next rewards a little bit further away. It's something a bit more exciting for you. And then you build up to that final payment where you do something really fun for yourself. And I think that's got to be part of it. You have to provide something motivating for yourself and it should be a reward like you've done something really important and impressive and paying off a big debt, even if it's a small debt and you give yourself like, treat yourself a little bit. It's not all about deprivation at the end of the day. I think you have to enjoy the journey along the way, too. Just like anything where you're trying to change a habit. If you don't make it enjoyable for yourself in some way, you will fall off that bike. And very quickly, most likely,

Daphné Vanessa (24:46): Totally agree with that. And, uh, the FII community we're often accused of sort of being super in the deprivation space, right? Where it's, I, I I'm guilty of this. You know, I, as student loans have been paid off and you get the payoff letter, I don't do anything. I actually have done nothing. Um, but it would probably be a lot more inclusive and sort of like a nice family activity if we sort of celebrated those wins, right? Because it is a win to pay off any amount of debt. And, um, that sort of helps you have the motivation to keep going. So I can definitely see how that intrinsic value of support really helps you stick with it and keep going. So thank you for sharing them

Rob Phelan (25:37): And even just sharing it with the people around you and then celebrating with them afterwards, help them stay on board with you too. So if you have kids who are questioning like, well, why can't we do all the fun things? Why can't I have all this stuff? And you're kind of trying to say, like, we'll know, in the back of my head, we need to save, cause we're paying down debt. If you're not sharing like those moments and those goals and those visual charts too, like your kids can see those and they can tell over getting closer to the goal when we hit it, we're going to do something fun. Um, if you have a friend group who is a spender friend group, like letting them know, like, Hey, I'm saving up for this, um, share updates with them, like about how you're getting those goals, have a celebration with them afterwards. Like, they'll be much more inclined to support you in that goal rather than being kind of a, someone constantly kind of picking at you to, to spend, spend, spend, just come on out with us, do something with us, forget about that goal, whatever.

Daphné Vanessa (26:24): I love that. Um, so we've, we've spoken a lot about sort of the psychological let's switch into the tactical, if that's okay with you for those actual steps on, you mentioned different methods, right? With teaching kids about money, what are those different methods that, that you use and that you speak about in your book?

Rob Phelan (26:50): So like, you mean just like different ways of communicating like financial lessons? Correct. Okay. So in my class, I guess I'll choose my own classes as the example, um, we do a lot of different kind of approaches to different topics. So like, um, I use a lot of board games. I use a lot of online simulations, um, video articles, podcasts, um, you know, YouTube is a great one. Guest speakers is another. So I try and bring a mixture of everything in there in the hopes that we find at least one thing that a kid is like, oh, I like that. And I'll come back to more. I'll come back for more. Um, so we do things like immediate club, which is sort of it's, it's based off a book club, but instead of assigning kids a book and doing it like once a month, we do a blog post, a YouTube video or a mini podcast episode.

Rob Phelan (27:33): So 50 minutes or less, and they have a week to listen, they will need to consume it. And then we come back the end of the week and discuss it. And it's just a way to expose them to as many different content creators as possible. And they can choose their media of choice as well, so that they figure out for themselves, what do they like to do for learning? Um, and for some kids it's like, oh, I didn't realize I actually enjoy learning when it's not in a classroom where I'm being forced to do it. Like they're actually sitting in cars and listening to podcasts now, or, um, this is like watching YouTube videos on something other than junk, um, getting off protect or following like even social media following like actual content creators who are doing good stuff with personal finance is another side benefit. Like if they're going to be on social media, at least include some of that stuff in your newsfeed.

Daphné Vanessa (28:18): And that's applicable to people with student loans, right? Like that's applicable to, I think adults as well. So

Rob Phelan (28:25): Yeah, it comes, it comes down to that idea from a Jim Roan, the surround yourself with, or you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And it's like, well, one of the ways you can surround yourself with different people is things like podcasts. It's your social media feed. It's the people you hang out with. Like sometimes we think we have to fire our friend group and totally replace them, but really you can just change. A lot of the people you're exposed to on a daily basis. And social media is one of the places that we spend a lot of time.

Shamil Rodriguez (28:53): I like, I like that anybody who brings up Jim Roan is a as welcome on this show at any time. Uh, but no, I think a great, great point there, Robin, I think, uh, I guess a followup question on that actually, can we go back to one definition I'd like to bring up, I know we've, we've said it when we have other guests on, but can you describe what the differences between the avalanche method and the snowball method? Right. So, so that, uh, for those listeners that may not have heard some of those other episodes, they can get like that baseline of what that actually means in terms of trying to pay off their debt and this strategy.

Rob Phelan (29:25): Sure. So, um, two main, I guess, polar opposite methods of paying down debt. One is the snowball method. One is the avalanche method, the snowball method, you're going to list your debt. So all the debts that you have, um, from smallest balance to highest, and you're gonna pay the smallest balance off first. So we get that kind of game theory where you're going to get quick wins in the beginning, and then they're going to start spreading themselves out a little bit because your debts are probably going to get bigger. But once you pay off the first one and then you're paying minimum payments on all the others, once you pay off that first one, you roll that payment into the next one. So you continue paying minimums and all the others. But the second one that snowballs a little bit bigger for paying down debt.

Rob Phelan (30:03): And you just continue that way until your largest debt has been paid off. And by the time you get to the largest one, you have the biggest snowball you're throwing all of your extra money at this thing. So it should go a little bit faster. The avalanche method is the mathematically correct one. So if you were going to try and save yourself the most money and pay down your debts, the fastest, you would actually choose the avalanche method, which is where you list your debts from highest interest rate to lowest. Um, so the higher the interest rate, the more that debt is costing you each month, or however often the debt compounds and what you do is you pay the highest interest rate off first paying minimum payments on all the others. Same idea. Then once that loan has gone, you roll it into the next one.

Rob Phelan (30:46): And the next one, the next one. So usually credit cards will end up at the top of the pile on that one, as opposed to maybe like some of your smaller private student loans or a small car loan or small personal loan, um, both are great methods. The avalanche method doesn't have that psychological win in it. Um, by default, you can build your own kind of like we talked about by putting mini goals in there and a little milestones that you can hit yourself, but it depends on the person. Some people like the mathematical, like I understand this, I'm going to pay down the one that's costing me the most money first and some prefer the quick wins, and that's going to keep me coming back to continue paying it off. And then of course there's like hybrid versions of this where you're kind of doing something in the middle, whichever one works for you. I recommend doing that one,

Shamil Rodriguez (31:28): Eh, you know what a great, great point on that, the idea of really picking something that works for you, right? Because all personal finances personal. So you really have to connect those though, these theories, these ideas, these strategies that for what works for you. So I guess another follow-up question on that rock. I really, really enjoyed this, this, uh, aspect of it is, uh, the idea we talked about deprivation before, right? We have had guests on the show that talked about, like, I paid off a ton of debt and I basically like lived off of ramen noodles for like a couple of years and I was able to do it. Right. But, um, do you think, and I'd love for you to just hear what your thoughts are on this is, do you think that people should, uh, you know, take that deprivation strategy or, um, and like pay off their student loan debt? Or do you think that it's possible to pay off your student loan debt and still live a normal life while you're doing that at the same time?

Rob Phelan (32:20): Oh, good question. Um, I've met people who have done both. So like I met people who have gone all in. They've done nothing else, but focus on increasing their income pained on their dads. They've sacrificed their social lives, their relationships, their health, um, and come out and the other side is millionaires and maybe their late twenties or early thirties, but they kind of look back in hindsight and be like, man, I kind of threw away a lot of things that were important to me. And I wish I'd gone slower instead. Um, grants, nobody is the author of financial freedom. And he did a book tour around the country a couple of years ago when his book came out and stopped at my high school actually and talked. And that's one thing that he shared with us with the students was like, he did it in five years.

Rob Phelan (33:02): Like he went from zero to a million in five years. Um, but really regretted going so fast at it. Um, and I know personally, my wife is kind of the buffer for us here because like I probably would go a little bit more extreme myself cause I just have very basic needs. Um, but my wife is kinda the one who was like, no, you need to remember to live in the moment as well, because if you don't, you're going to end up yeah. Either regretting at the end or you're not going to live life for those years while you're paying it down, which is not a very fun thought either. So I guess personal finance is a, it's a simple equation you need to spend less than you make. And that gap that you have is either something you're investing, it's going towards paying down debts that you need, you need that gap and finding the right balance of increasing your income to build, bring the gap up, decreasing your expenses.

Rob Phelan (33:53): Um, you want to find the right balance for that. So for some people it's like, yeah, I'm just gonna continue living like a college student for another couple of years. Um, maybe I'll do a house hack. So I'll get like an apartment that has multiple units in it and I'll just live in one and rent out the others. And by the time I'm done with this, I'll have a paid off student loan paid off house. And the, the wealth building journey really is on a super kickstart. Um, you'll have some people who are like, I'm just going to kind of like pay the minimum on these student loans. Um, there'll be there for a while, but, um, they're only a low interest rates I'm going to invest instead and just get my wealth building journey going that way. It's it really comes down to like the interest rate I think is a big important one. So like if it's under 6%, you can probably afford to go a little bit slower on your student loans. If it's over it, I would consider prioritizing those. I think six is a good cutoff point where, you know, if you're investing in like the S and P 500, you're probably going to get a better return than 6%. Um, but if you're paying down debt, you're locking in whatever that interest rate is.

Shamil Rodriguez (34:52): Great advice. Uh, great, great advice. Thank you. And I like those general tips, right? Like, you know, everyone's situation is going to be different, but having like some sort of cutoff mental, just a mental signal to say, like, you know what, if I'm above six from below six, at least I can use that. And then, um, we're definitely gonna add some links to the show notes as well, Rob, uh, so you know, whatever recommendations you do have that you've mentioned, and then you, uh, want us to share on the show notes, because I think this will be something that we can absolutely have our listeners learn from. Uh, so Daphne, you wanna switch over you

Daphné Vanessa (35:23): Sure. I wanted to talk about the M Ms for money book. Just like going into a little bit more detail. I'm super excited for, I think it's November 13th, right? Which is when the official book launches, but people can get the audio right now. Is, is that correct?

Rob Phelan (35:39): Yeah. So the book is on preorder. Um, so it means you can actually go on and order your copy and it will be sent out to you on November 13th. Uh, the audio book is available right now. Um, so very exciting. It's actually the number one, um, new release on Amazon books. It's for children's money books, which is like a super niche categories, but I'm just going to like go with a number one new release for awhile. Um, but yeah, it's very exciting. Um, I'm getting a lot of great feedback about it, which is what I was really hoping it was gonna happen. I did a Kickstarter to raise the money to actually bring this book out. So one of the things I believe when it comes to starting businesses is that you don't throw your own money in Twitter. You throw as little in as possible while you're still testing out the idea and making sure that people actually want it. So doing a Kickstarter was a way to see, like, could I raise at least $6,000 to get this book printed and, um, ended up raising 13,000 sold over 600 copies. And that told me, yep, I've got something that people want. Um, so went ahead printed. Those, sent them out to my Kickstarter backers. And now we're up to the public release, which is super exciting syringe that like almost final month countdown.

Daphné Vanessa (36:49): Amazing. Amazing. And how long did it take for you to go exceed your goal, exceed your $6,000 goal to raise the $13,000.

Rob Phelan (36:58): So with Kickstarter, you get like a huge rush in the beginning because you've been telling all your friends, family, like, Hey, this thing is coming. So the first couple of days are super exciting, then it kind of slows down for the middle. And then it picks up again at the end, when you start telling people, they've only got a couple of days left. Um, so I met the goal for the Kickstarter on like day seven, which was wonderful. Yeah. So like by day seven, I was like, phew, this thing is funded. I can, I can read a little bit because with Kickstarter, if it does not get funded, nobody gets charged and you make no money. So everyone just kind of walks away from the table without losing anything. Right. Um, so by day seven I knew that the thing was funded and that I was going to be printing some books, which was really exciting. And then the pledges just kept coming. I had a lot of, um, big supporters in terms of social media influencers in the personal finance and financial dependence space, um, which was really helpful in getting the word out there about this. Um, a lot of teachers picking it up homeschool parents. So it's definitely seems to be filling a need that wasn't being filled already, which is great.

Daphné Vanessa (37:55): Yes, no people question when I have personal finance on my, my toddlers, like lesson plan and people are confused. They're like, what are you teaching a two year old about personal finance? But your book is evidence that there is a huge space for this because children need to start thinking about this earlier to either prevent whatever blockages people are having right now with money or encourage good habits from the beginning. So I love that you did this. Um, my question for you is, is this available in French? Do you need a translator?

Rob Phelan (38:35): Possibly do. Um, so yeah, it's, it was one of those questions I got like, so the book has us dollars in it. And one of the first questions I got was, is this going to be available in euros or is this applicable for the UK? And I was like, I hope to someday, but intrepreneur to make sure that this was successful. I had to go narrow first before I could go wide. So it meant English based, um, U S version. I would love to add a Spanish version as soon as possible. Um, French would be on that list too, for sure. And then ideally like a European version as well. But yeah, I wanted to make sure that a US-based version would sell first since I would imagine that if I, if it was going to be successful, uh, an English based, um, U S version was probably my best shot at that. And then from there, adding in more languages is probably going to be an easier thing to do because there will already be some sort of following him backing to go with. That's a great thought and I will be in touch when I need a translator.

Daphné Vanessa (39:28): Thank you. I, I would love to do this. This is like everything that I love fun.

Rob Phelan (39:35): Kid's picture books are real easy. It's only 26 pages.

Daphné Vanessa (39:40): And the word count, I think at this age is like less than 500. Maybe it's like, yeah. Um, but still so exciting. I, I love childhood education. I'm not a teacher at all, but I'm just so fascinated by how quickly children just absorb information. And they're so optimistic. So they're just the best little people to be around.

Rob Phelan (40:00): So exciting. I mean, you guys are teachers, you're doing this, you're teachers you're in here in this to share information that makes you teachers, um, you know, whether you have a formal like teacher job title or not, that's the, I think it's the mentality that we bring to what we do. I hear that like,

Shamil Rodriguez (40:17): And don't let Daphne a undersell. Our daughter's doing fantastic because Daphne is a great teacher who created the curriculum and does everything else that, uh, has put her in this position now. So kudos to mom. Um, but Robert, I definitely wanted to, um, to, to make sure that we have enough time to talk about this other subject Daphne before, do you mind if I switch over to this next subject here? No, let's do it. Okay. So I miss for money. Everyone, if you have children or adult I'm recommending that you absolutely do it, uh, because you know, like despite on Rob has already, in my opinion, uh, really highlighted what, why it's so important, but I also want to talk about two's FII foundation, right? The two that my foundation is fantastic. And I, I really want to spend some time here, Rob, because I think it's a great way between you being a high school teacher for teenagers that are going to go to college.

Shamil Rodriguez (41:09): And to be honest, going international is a great option if you've got to set up already and it might be overwhelming for people to think about that. Um, and we are going to have some people that are just simply going to go into the U S system and take on student loan debt, right? Yeah. But I don't want people. And I feel like this is one of those things where I was so happy to find out about the foundation actually through looking, you know, doing some background research on you. And I was like, this is amazing because when you take out, I'll send a student loan debt, it can be very easy to think that financial dependence is not something that will ever happen to you anytime soon. Right. Um, so can you just talk about, you know, I've heard you, you've, you've designed a part of the curriculum that they share, you know, could you just talk about some of, um, some of what you do at choose F five foundation and really share some of that knowledge?

Rob Phelan (41:52): Sure. So choose a thigh is, um, so the, the main company is a financial independence podcast. It's one of the top downloaded financial dependence podcasts in the world at this point. And they're about five years old now. And two years in, they wanted to start a nonprofit version of the company called crucify foundation. And I was brought on as a lead curriculum developer for high school, and we built a pre-K through 12th grade, um, personal finance curriculum. So, you know, lessons going all the way down to pre-K age, all the way up to 12th grade, um, you know, in an ideal world, kids are getting these lessons the whole way up through, and by the time they're graduating high school, they are ready. Like they are fully financial literate adults who are ready to take on all the biggest financial decisions that we have. But, um, it just in the, you know, the off chance that they don't get that, um, at least getting it in high school is a great place to start.

Rob Phelan (42:44): And it covers all of the major life events that you're going to think about it. It's not just about financial literacy is not just about learning definitions and terms and what stuff is. It's actually probably more so about the psychology behind the way we make our decisions, the thought processes that should go into how to evaluate a financial decision. Um, so I think, I feel like that's almost more important than just knowing, knowing the words, um, like the words are definitely a big thing. Like, especially when you consider some of the niche areas like taxes and insurance, like some of those words just like mean absolutely nothing to the average person. And they just haven't they've haven't come across them before have them explained. But if you don't know what to do with those words, um, it doesn't really help you very much. So our curriculum was more so about personal finance education as opposed to financial literacy.

Rob Phelan (43:28): And I think that's what kind of set us apart from anything else that was out there at the time. And yet it's freely available. Any teacher can pick it up, any parent can pick it up. Um, it's at choose a five foundation.org, so.org. And the other side of it we have is the adult education side, which, um, I don't know if you even knew existed. So it's called 5 1 0 1. And we created a self-paced on-demand free course for any adult to take. If you're like, I want to learn how this money thing works and, or you got a friend who was like, they want to learn how the money thing works. And you're like, I, I can't explain it to you right now. And there's one dinner party that we're at, but Hey, you want to learn, go to, um, choose a buy foundation that Oregon take their 501 course.

Rob Phelan (44:07): It's, it's wonderful. It's self paced. Um, it's got a whole community feature built in as well as you can find other people doing the same thing as you. And I think, yeah, we have a lot of great tools to help somebody help themselves or to help other people. So if you're like, I want to do something in my community, I want to go in and talk to schools. I want to set up something at the local public library. Like you could just take our stuff. It's very turnkey. We've made it for the person who has no clue what they're talking about. It goes totally scripted all the way up to, you know, what you're doing. You just need some resources and guidelines along the way. So it's, and anybody can use this.

Shamil Rodriguez (44:40): I think

Daphné Vanessa (44:42): This is amazing. I didn't realize that Jonathan and Brad were so charitable, like, that's it,

Rob Phelan (44:51): I'm going to tell them that.

Daphné Vanessa (44:56): Um, no, I mean this with like the most respect though, because they've given so much free information already, you know, like with the podcast and I am really just floored that, you know, like you took the time out. So many people took the time out to develop this curriculum for people to get on their own feet. And this can be a game changer for so many different communities that have no exposure. Right. Especially the fact that you made it turn key. I mean, this is I'm, I'm floored. I was not aware of this. And I almost listened to every single episode that they've looked like. I have no idea how I didn't hear this.

Rob Phelan (45:34): I need to give them that feedback too, that they don't talk about it enough. But, um, thank you. Yeah, that's really nice of you to say. And there are some other excellent organizations out there too. Like, I don't want to pretend that we are the only ones and I definitely to give a shout out to some of the other great stuff out there. Um, next gen personal finances and other wonderful organization that I recommend you guys for anyone listening check out. Um, and yeah, if you are in a community and you're like, you know what? I went to high school, I didn't get this in high school. Um, you have the ability to help influence what's going on in your community. So like go talk to your local principals, boards of education, um, state leaders and say like, you know, we need personal finance education in our schools or in our community in some way, because we're not getting it right now. And we are seeing states start to change their minds. So like Rhode Island has just proposed a bill. North Carolina has just adopted like a standalone graduation requirement for personal finance. Um, we have at least five other states that have already adopted one and states are slowly starting to come around. So definitely have put pressure on your local organizations, tell them like you, this is what we want. This is a life skill that we really need to be getting in school. Um, because we're not getting anywhere else either. Right?

Shamil Rodriguez (46:42): Yeah. I think it's, it's wonderful. It's something that when I was a senior year high school, graduating, going to college, the same idea where I was like, you know, I learned to just hold the save, but that was it like nothing really else about financial literacy or what that meant or what that like, look like. Like, I mean, so I'm going to ask you some really basic questions that I'll want to, hopefully whoever's listening to it. Who may have some of these mental blocks can at least hear you talk about what the reality is. So one, do I have to wait now these might be rhetorical for you, Robin and for Daphne and I, because we go into this space, but I want to make sure that we're really, you know, hope it, hopefully helping someone unblock that, that, that issue that black in my hat. So throughout, are you telling me that it's possible to be financially independent before I'm 65 years old? Or do I have to wait until social security kicks in?

Rob Phelan (47:32): Um, yeah. You know, it was going heck yes, it is. Um, so social security may or may not be there. So I wouldn't even bank on that at this point. Um, you know, social security is a pot of money that is getting smaller and smaller each year at the moment. So the, something has to change with the formula on that. So I wouldn't count on it in any way, shape or form right now. Um, same thing with pensions, if you have them make sure it's actually a decent pension and fully funded one don't rely on it if it's not. Um, but yeah, it's, it's that simple equation, um, earn more, spend less invest that gap better. So you want to invest that money. So it is growing faster than inflation, which super important in today's world because our inflation rates are actually really high right now.

Rob Phelan (48:12): So we want to see our money growing faster, um, than inflation is eroding it and investing in simple things like total stock market index funds, world stock, market index funds S and P 500. It does not need to be complicated. Uh, one of my favorite books out there is by JL Collins, it's called the simple path to wealth. And like, it's, it's that simple. It's just like set up an IRA, put it in a total stock market index fund and just forget about it friends, because you don't need to do anything else with it. And you just continue to contribute to that for the rest of your days, or as long as you want to. And by at some point you will reach financial independence and you'll wake up and be like, hang on. I don't need to go to work today or ever again.

Shamil Rodriguez (48:52): Can you wait? I want to make sure we repeat that one more time. People will be able to say what at the end of the day they will have to do what go to,

Rob Phelan (48:59): Well, I don't have to go to work. I don't feel like going to work today. I quit.

Shamil Rodriguez (49:05): So guys, that is what I emphasize that for everyone who's listening, that you do not have to wait until you're 65 years old. I've heard that. I'm just saying that because I've heard these, these comments, um, and they can be cultural. They can be from where you grow up. They can be geographic whichever, but I just feel like it's important to emphasize that. Here's another simple question that I hear often. Um, do I have to be a startup tech founder, the next, you know, Tik TOK, the next Facebook, it to be financially independent before, uh, you know, a certain age, or can I do this working a regular nine to five job?

Rob Phelan (49:38): Um, again, I'll throw another book out that there's one of my favorites. Um, it's the millionaire next door by Thomas Stanley. Uh, and this is a book that just basically highlights all of the self-made millionaires in the U S at the time that it was written. And what'd you realize that most of them are not these big shots. Um, you hear the stories of celebrities, athletes, um, tech, CEOs, whatever it is that, you know, go from nothing to multi-millions billions in a short period of time, those are great. Um, those are what we call unicorns. They're very rare. They come around, you know, uh, only once in a blue moon kind of thing, but the average millionaire absolutely can do this. And you can be financial dependent in like probably 11 to 15 years. If you take like a concentrated look at it and do it, the exciting thing for like high school students, or even like early college students, is it doesn't take much, time is actually the biggest asset you have because you just need your money to have time to grow. So if you can get started now, it actually doesn't take much like a hundred bucks a month for a 16 year old. Um, they're going to get into the mid twenties and they can probably stop investing and saving. And by the time they hit 65, they've got multi-millions and if they continue to invest, they reach it faster. So it's, it's not something that is ever too late to start. You're never too late to start. Um, you just have to start

Shamil Rodriguez (50:53): Well said, well said, and now here's the last one, uh, blows that category of questions and Daphne, I'll flip it over to you. Cause I feel like it's such a great topic and dapping like a bath loves this and is always preaching about by some like, I'm like loving this right now. Um, the last one is can I become financially independent? And I feel like we already talked about this, but I want to make sure we emphasize it after this question is can I become financially independent even though I have student loans?

Rob Phelan (51:19): Yes. Um, and so some stats for you, a college graduate will statistically have a better salary than a person who has just a high school diploma. So you are going to be a higher income earner, most likely due to your college diploma. Now it depends of course what it's in and how you use it and whether you use it. Um, there are ton of alternatives out there right now to going to a four-year college or doing two years in the four years. Um, so there's a lot of great online certificate programs that can yield high salaries as well. So if you haven't already made the student loan decision, you're kind of thinking about it. Maybe just make sure you've evaluated those other paths before you consider going down that route. Um, student loans are something that is working against you and at the same, any debt is working against you in terms of your net worth.

Rob Phelan (52:04): So it's something that you're going to continue to have to work, to be able to pay those loans off those loans, accumulate interest. So they're decreasing your net worth each month as opposed to an investment which would be increasing your net worth each month. So until you get rid of those, they're going to kind of slow you down. For sure. They're like this little anchor you're dragging behind you, but it by no means is going to stop anyone. Most people who are still self-made millionaires probably had student loans at some point and found a way to pay those things off and then took that money that they use to pay off the debt and started investing it. Um, and, and that's another thing is like, once you have put that money aside, you put it towards debt and you kind of hit that finish line. Don't just inflate your lifestyle to like, you know, really celebrate, give yourself a little win, of course, like, you know, give yourself something, but take most of that money and start putting it in towards investments and really accelerate that snowball in the right direction now towards building your net worth.

Shamil Rodriguez (52:59): Thank you. Thank you for sharing that route. That was well said, well said, Daphne, I'm going to turn it over to you.

Daphné Vanessa (53:04): I think that's just a powerful final lesson. I think that that's exactly the type of message that will be very helpful to our audience is very helpful to our audience. Just to know that you're on this journey to pay off student loan debt or to make sure that you graduate school without any debt, ideally. And that doesn't mean that you stop thinking about financial independence or that it's something to think about later, they can happen in tandem and you just have to figure out for your strategy, how do you want to see yourself succeed and what are your own goals? So thank you for ending with that message. I think that was a very powerful, strong message to end with.

Rob Phelan (53:44): Yeah. Um, yeah, that's exactly it. Guys. Anyone can do this. Um, no one is exempt from being able to chase financial independence. Um, it's a wonderful thing to try and achieve. It is not going to be the same for everyone. Um, there's a wonderful YouTube video show my students at the start of the year and it's about, um, privilege. And, you know, it's basically like they're all gonna run a race for a hundred bucks and then the guy running the race is like, all right, if you have these conditions, take two steps forward and starts listing out all these different things. And what you realize is everyone starting the race at a different spot. Um, and we're all, we're all in that kind of situation where everyone is starting this financial dependence ratio in a different spot. Um, in terms of your knowledge education, your life experiences, um, your wealth, your health, your mental health, and we're all gonna have to figure this thing out. And for some people will be faster than others, but it doesn't mean that you can't do it.

Shamil Rodriguez (54:35): Great. Thank you. Thank you so much, Rob. I really appreciate it. Last question is where can people connect with you outside of our show notes, but how can someone, if they want to learn from you directly or reach out to you, how can they connect or following?

Rob Phelan (54:47): Please do reach out. I love hearing from people, um, love answering questions and helping out. Uh, you can find me on the three main social medias, I guess, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Um, so on Facebook and Instagram at Emma's for money book on Twitter, I'm at five educator educator, uh, haven't made my way onto tick-tock yet or Snapchat or any of those other ones that are probably popular at the moment. Um, I was on clubhouse for a little bit, but I'm not quite there anymore. And yeah, please, please do reach out. If you want to check out the, choose a buy curriculum, go to choose a five foundation.org. You'll be able to find me there as well and, um, contact options there. Uh, if you are interested in Emma's for money, go check out. Emma's free money book.com if you're interested in entrepreneurship for kids. So you have a 10 to 18 year old in your life who is interested in learning more about, um, how to earn money, um, check out the simple startup.com. So that's my other book that we didn't get talked about at all, but yeah, some great stuff there about how to earn more.

Shamil Rodriguez (55:44): Yeah. We may have to bring you back on and talk about just that aspect, you know, 18 year old going to college. What if you're in high school and you're like, you know what? I don't have the money, but I want to start a business so I can pay for school for myself and, you know, Hey, maybe we can maybe that, Hey, maybe we've got another episode guys on the bag already.

Shamil Rodriguez (56:04): All right. Uh, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate you having lot on the show. Uh, and with that being said, if you want to learn more about how to connect with Rob or maybe you're driving right now, and we don't want you to try to take notes on everything he just said, you can visit the show notes for a full list of the resources, a summary of the topics that we talked about today and ways to connect with Rob and the choose FII community and to pre-order his book, because it is a great foundational tool. That'll help your kids. And in my opinion, if you read it as an adult and you've never had any financial literacy training, I think you can benefit from it as well. Thank you so much, guys.

Shamil Rodriguez (56:40): Visit the student loan podcast.com for such episode 51. That's the student loan podcast.com forward slash episode 51.